Is Nibbana cessation of being?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
Posts: 9576
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:10 am

But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn60

Is Nibbana a cessation of being?
and also
Is cessation means annihilation?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19956
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:22 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:10 am
Is Nibbana a cessation of being?
Yes.
SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:10 am
Is cessation means annihilation?
Cessation means the cessation of sankhata-dhammas.

Do you speak of "annihilation" in the context of dhammas? I find it more natural to see it in terms of the second half of the standard idappaccayata structure.
MN: Bahudhātuka Sutta wrote:"Thus: -This being - this comes to be
With the arising of this - this arises
This not being - this does not come to be
With the cessation of this - this ceases.


- and that is to say, dependent on ignorance, preparations
come to be; dependent on preparations, consciousness; dependent
on consciousness, name-and-form; dependent on nameand-form,
the six sense-bases; dependent on the six sensebases,
contact; dependent on contact, feeling; dependent on
feeling, craving; dependent on craving, grasping; dependent on
grasping, becoming; dependent on becoming, birth; dependent
on birth, decay-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and
despair come to be. Thus is the arising of this entire mass of
suffering.

But with the complete fading away and cessation of ignorance,
comes the cessation of preparations; with the cessation of
preparations, the cessation of consciousness; with the cessation
of consciousness, the cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation
of name-and-form, the cessation of the six sense-bases;
with the cessation of the six sense-bases, the cessation of contact;
with the cessation of contact, the cessation of feeling; with
the cessation of feeling, the cessation of craving; with the cessation
of craving, the cessation of grasping; with the cessation of
grasping, the cessation of becoming; with the cessation of becoming,
the cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, the
cessation of decay-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief
and despair cease to be. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass
of suffering
."
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SarathW
Posts: 9576
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:30 am

What is the Pali word for "being"?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19956
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:38 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:30 am
What is the Pali word for "being"?
Two options that come to mind are "satta" or "bhava" - I'm no expert, but the satta seems like a noun, and bhava seems like an adjective. Bhava obviously makes an appearance in the paticcasamuppada formula, so it's probably most apt here (translated above as 'becoming').

Happy to be corrected, of course.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SarathW
Posts: 9576
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:52 am

Thanks, Paul I think you are correct. When you gave me the lead I could trace that to Pali Sutta.
It is Bhavanirodho.
>Ye pana te bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā evaṃvādino evaṃdiṭṭhino: ‘atthi sabbaso bhavanirodho’ti, sace tesaṃ bhavataṃ samaṇab­rāhma­ṇā­naṃ saccaṃ vacanaṃ, ṭhānametaṃ vijjati—yaṃ diṭṭheva dhamme pari­nib­bā­yis­sāmi.>

https://suttacentral.net/pi/mn60

Now it make sense.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19956
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:59 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:52 am
Now it make sense.
:thumbsup:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 3955
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:11 am

I've nothing to add to the substance of this debate, but the above exchange might profitably be read by those who think there is something wrong with this site: too much politics, personalised stances, etc.

Two people engaging in a civil discussion about Buddhist metaphysics and ontology, with a brief and humble foray into Pali. The person who originated the thread says they benefitted from it. Everyone happy.

:heart:

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2272
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:28 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:38 am
Two options that come to mind are "satta" or "bhava" -
Bhava = 10th nidana & Satta = 11th nidana. Satta found in SN 23.2
And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings (sattānaṃ) into the various orders of beings (sattanikāye), their being born, descent, production from the manifestation of the aggregates & the acquisition of the sense spheres. This is called birth. SN 12.2
***
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:38 am
I'm no expert, but the satta seems like a noun, and bhava seems like an adjective. Bhava obviously makes an appearance in the paticcasamuppada formula, so it's probably most apt here (translated above as 'becoming').
I think if 'bhava' was an 'adjective', it might be 'bhavikā' (as found in the 2nd noble truth). :shrug:

Dinsdale
Posts: 5758
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:43 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:22 am
Cessation means the cessation of sankhata-dhammas.
Isn't everything we experience sankhata dhammas? Sights, sounds, sensations, etc?

Could you be more specific about which sankhata dhammas cease in your view?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Caodemarte
Posts: 831
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:53 pm

I was under the impression that as Nibbana is unconditioned or free from conditions, causes, etc. it cannot be the cessation of being/non-being or involve the destruction or creation of anything, except as a metaphor for “free of” or “freeing.”

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:30 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:53 pm
I was under the impression that as Nibbana is unconditioned or free from conditions, causes, etc. it cannot be the cessation of being/non-being or involve the destruction or creation of anything, except as a metaphor for “free of” or “freeing.”
If "being" = "caught up, tied up", then Nibbana would be the cessation of that. Reading SN 23.2, one could say that "being" = "caught up, tied up".
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

Saengnapha
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:51 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:30 am
What is the Pali word for "being"?
Bhante Punnaji translates bhava as existence. This would be the same thing as being, I would think.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:55 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:53 pm
I was under the impression that as Nibbana is unconditioned or free from conditions, causes, etc. it cannot be the cessation of being/non-being or involve the destruction or creation of anything, except as a metaphor for “free of” or “freeing.”
Being and non-being are views. Since they don't really exist, there is no destruction involved. So, I think what you say seems to be the case.

Caodemarte
Posts: 831
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:57 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:30 pm
Caodemarte wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:53 pm
I was under the impression that as Nibbana is unconditioned or free from conditions, causes, etc. it cannot be the cessation of being/non-being or involve the destruction or creation of anything, except as a metaphor for “free of” or “freeing.”
If "being" = "caught up, tied up", then Nibbana would be the cessation of that. Reading SN 23.2, one could say that "being" = "caught up, tied up".
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
Thanks. If “being” is not used in its ontological sense, but in the sense above (craving, clinging, etc.) cessation of being would be liberation, freedom from craving. Not literal non-metaphorical annihilation of existence, destruction, etc.

SarathW
Posts: 9576
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:52 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:28 pm
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:38 am
Two options that come to mind are "satta" or "bhava" -
Bhava = 10th nidana & Satta = 11th nidana. Satta found in SN 23.2
And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings (sattānaṃ) into the various orders of beings (sattanikāye), their being born, descent, production from the manifestation of the aggregates & the acquisition of the sense spheres. This is called birth. SN 12.2
***
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:38 am
I'm no expert, but the satta seems like a noun, and bhava seems like an adjective. Bhava obviously makes an appearance in the paticcasamuppada formula, so it's probably most apt here (translated above as 'becoming').
I think if 'bhava' was an 'adjective', it might be 'bhavikā' (as found in the 2nd noble truth). :shrug:
There is three type of Bhava.
Kamma Bhava, Rupa Bhava and Arupa Bhava.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], cookiemonster, TRobinson465 and 96 guests