Is Nibbana cessation of being?

[SarathW]

But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn60

Is Nibbana a cessation of being?
and also
Is cessation means annihilation?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Sarath,

Is Nibbana a cessation of being?

Yes.

Is cessation means annihilation?

Cessation means the cessation of sankhata-dhammas.

Do you speak of "annihilation" in the context of dhammas? I find it more natural to see it in terms of the second half of the standard idappaccayata structure.

"Thus: -This being - this comes to be
With the arising of this - this arises
This not being - this does not come to be
With the cessation of this - this ceases.

- and that is to say, dependent on ignorance, preparations
come to be; dependent on preparations, consciousness; dependent
on consciousness, name-and-form; dependent on nameand-form,
the six sense-bases; dependent on the six sensebases,
contact; dependent on contact, feeling; dependent on
feeling, craving; dependent on craving, grasping; dependent on
grasping, becoming; dependent on becoming, birth; dependent
on birth, decay-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and
despair come to be. Thus is the arising of this entire mass of
suffering.

But with the complete fading away and cessation of ignorance,
comes the cessation of preparations; with the cessation of
preparations, the cessation of consciousness; with the cessation
of consciousness, the cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation
of name-and-form, the cessation of the six sense-bases;
with the cessation of the six sense-bases, the cessation of contact;
with the cessation of contact, the cessation of feeling; with
the cessation of feeling, the cessation of craving; with the cessation
of craving, the cessation of grasping; with the cessation of
grasping, the cessation of becoming; with the cessation of becoming,
the cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, the
cessation of decay-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief
and despair cease to be. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass
of suffering."

Metta,
Paul.

[SarathW]

What is the Pali word for "being"?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Sarath,

What is the Pali word for "being"?

Two options that come to mind are "satta" or "bhava" - I'm no expert, but the satta seems like a noun, and bhava seems like an adjective. Bhava obviously makes an appearance in the paticcasamuppada formula, so it's probably most apt here (translated above as 'becoming').

Happy to be corrected, of course.

Metta,
Paul.

[SarathW]

Thanks, Paul I think you are correct. When you gave me the lead I could trace that to Pali Sutta.
It is Bhavanirodho.
>Ye pana te bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā evaṃvādino evaṃdiṭṭhino: ‘atthi sabbaso bhavanirodho’ti, sace tesaṃ bhavataṃ samaṇab­rāhma­ṇā­naṃ saccaṃ vacanaṃ, ṭhānametaṃ vijjati—yaṃ diṭṭheva dhamme pari­nib­bā­yis­sāmi.>

https://suttacentral.net/pi/mn60

Now it make sense.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Sarath,

Now it make sense.

Metta,
Paul.

[Sam Vara]

I've nothing to add to the substance of this debate, but the above exchange might profitably be read by those who think there is something wrong with this site: too much politics, personalised stances, etc.

Two people engaging in a civil discussion about Buddhist metaphysics and ontology, with a brief and humble foray into Pali. The person who originated the thread says they benefitted from it. Everyone happy.

[DooDoot]

Two options that come to mind are "satta" or "bhava" -

Bhava = 10th nidana & Satta = 11th nidana. Satta found in SN 23.2

And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings (sattānaṃ) into the various orders of beings (sattanikāye), their being born, descent, production from the manifestation of the aggregates & the acquisition of the sense spheres. This is called birth. SN 12.2

***

I'm no expert, but the satta seems like a noun, and bhava seems like an adjective. Bhava obviously makes an appearance in the paticcasamuppada formula, so it's probably most apt here (translated above as 'becoming').

I think if 'bhava' was an 'adjective', it might be 'bhavikā' (as found in the 2nd noble truth).

[Dinsdale]

Cessation means the cessation of sankhata-dhammas.

Isn't everything we experience sankhata dhammas? Sights, sounds, sensations, etc?

Could you be more specific about which sankhata dhammas cease in your view?

[Caodemarte]

I was under the impression that as Nibbana is unconditioned or free from conditions, causes, etc. it cannot be the cessation of being/non-being or involve the destruction or creation of anything, except as a metaphor for “free of” or “freeing.”

[seeker242]

I was under the impression that as Nibbana is unconditioned or free from conditions, causes, etc. it cannot be the cessation of being/non-being or involve the destruction or creation of anything, except as a metaphor for “free of” or “freeing.”

If "being" = "caught up, tied up", then Nibbana would be the cessation of that. Reading SN 23.2, one could say that "being" = "caught up, tied up".

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

[Saengnapha]

What is the Pali word for "being"?

Bhante Punnaji translates bhava as existence. This would be the same thing as being, I would think.

[Saengnapha]

I was under the impression that as Nibbana is unconditioned or free from conditions, causes, etc. it cannot be the cessation of being/non-being or involve the destruction or creation of anything, except as a metaphor for “free of” or “freeing.”

Being and non-being are views. Since they don't really exist, there is no destruction involved. So, I think what you say seems to be the case.

[Caodemarte]

I was under the impression that as Nibbana is unconditioned or free from conditions, causes, etc. it cannot be the cessation of being/non-being or involve the destruction or creation of anything, except as a metaphor for “free of” or “freeing.”

If "being" = "caught up, tied up", then Nibbana would be the cessation of that. Reading SN 23.2, one could say that "being" = "caught up, tied up".

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

Thanks. If “being” is not used in its ontological sense, but in the sense above (craving, clinging, etc.) cessation of being would be liberation, freedom from craving. Not literal non-metaphorical annihilation of existence, destruction, etc.

[SarathW]

Two options that come to mind are "satta" or "bhava" -

Bhava = 10th nidana & Satta = 11th nidana. Satta found in SN 23.2

And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings (sattānaṃ) into the various orders of beings (sattanikāye), their being born, descent, production from the manifestation of the aggregates & the acquisition of the sense spheres. This is called birth. SN 12.2

***

I'm no expert, but the satta seems like a noun, and bhava seems like an adjective. Bhava obviously makes an appearance in the paticcasamuppada formula, so it's probably most apt here (translated above as 'becoming').

I think if 'bhava' was an 'adjective', it might be 'bhavikā' (as found in the 2nd noble truth).

There is three type of Bhava.
Kamma Bhava, Rupa Bhava and Arupa Bhava.

[DooDoot]

There is three type of Bhava.
Kamma Bhava, Rupa Bhava and Arupa Bhava.

Kama (sensual) Bhava, Rupa (material) Bhava and Arupa (immaterial) Bhava.

kāma
masculine
pleasure; lust; enjoyment; an object of sexual enjoyment.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Spiny,

Could you be more specific about which sankhata dhammas cease in your view?

All of them, but as you know from previous discussions you have a different understanding of what constitutes a sankhata-dhamma than I.

Metta,
Paul.

[DooDoot]

I was under the impression that as Nibbana is unconditioned or free from conditions, causes, etc. it cannot be the cessation of being/non-being or involve the destruction or creation of anything, except as a metaphor for “free of” or “freeing.”

Obviously this impression is incorrect given the Pali suttas could not be any more explicit:

154. O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.

Dhammapada

And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the calming of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.

MN 26

This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.

The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodhi

And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being (bhavanirodhāya), their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.

Iti 49 https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/ireland

On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being (bhavanirodho); with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

MN 38 https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi

[cappuccino]

Is Nibbana a cessation of being?

Yes.

no, no, no

nirvana is a worthy goal, however suicide is not a worthy goal

we seek nirvana rather than annihilation

[DooDoot]

no, no, no

Nibbana is the nirodha of bhava. Why falsify the teachings?

As for the translation of 'being' for 'bhava', maybe this needs to be examined more closely.