Is Nibbana cessation of being?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:54 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:50 am
As for the translation of 'being' for 'bhava', maybe this needs to be examined more closely.
close to the actual, but not completely accurate or exact

Dinsdale
Posts: 5614
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:10 am
But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna.
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn60

Is Nibbana a cessation of being?
and also
Is cessation means annihilation?
I think MN60 is just saying that if you have confidence that cessation of being is possible, then you are more likely to attain Nibbana.

"But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna."

"Being" here is bhava, also translated as "existence" and "becoming".

I don't think it's saying that Nibbana = cessation of bhava. In the suttas Nibbana is described as the cessation of the taints, not the cessation of bhava.

In SN12.2 bhava is described as existence in the three realms:

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Saengnapha
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:46 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am
SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:10 am
But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna.
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn60

Is Nibbana a cessation of being?
and also
Is cessation means annihilation?
I think MN60 is just saying that if you have confidence that cessation of being is possible, then you are more likely to attain Nibbana.

"But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna."

"Being" here is bhava, also translated as "existence" and "becoming".

I don't think it's saying that Nibbana = cessation of bhava. In the suttas Nibbana is described as the cessation of the taints, not the cessation of bhava.

In SN12.2 bhava is described as existence in the three realms:

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
The cessation of the personalization of existence is a condition for Nibbana. It doesn't cause it because Nibbana would be a result, a conditioned appearance.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:49 am

If you logout from a game server or delete a mmorpg character is that a cessation of being? To a certain extent it is. Is that annihilation? As for your character and the experiences derived from the game and interaction with the game world it is and to that extent it is annihilation.

This not meant to be an analogy or anything just showing how one can talk about such concepts.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

Dinsdale
Posts: 5614
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:28 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:46 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am
SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:10 am
But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna.
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn60

Is Nibbana a cessation of being?
and also
Is cessation means annihilation?
I think MN60 is just saying that if you have confidence that cessation of being is possible, then you are more likely to attain Nibbana.

"But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna."

"Being" here is bhava, also translated as "existence" and "becoming".

I don't think it's saying that Nibbana = cessation of bhava. In the suttas Nibbana is described as the cessation of the taints, not the cessation of bhava.

In SN12.2 bhava is described as existence in the three realms:

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
The cessation of the personalization of existence is a condition for Nibbana. It doesn't cause it because Nibbana would be a result, a conditioned appearance.
Could you explain what you mean by the "personalisation" of existence? Like regarding the aggregates as "me" and "mine"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Saengnapha
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:06 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:28 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:46 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am


I think MN60 is just saying that if you have confidence that cessation of being is possible, then you are more likely to attain Nibbana.

"But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna."

"Being" here is bhava, also translated as "existence" and "becoming".

I don't think it's saying that Nibbana = cessation of bhava. In the suttas Nibbana is described as the cessation of the taints, not the cessation of bhava.

In SN12.2 bhava is described as existence in the three realms:

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
The cessation of the personalization of existence is a condition for Nibbana. It doesn't cause it because Nibbana would be a result, a conditioned appearance.
Could you explain what you mean by the "personalisation" of existence? Like regarding the aggregates as "me" and "mine"?
Basically, yes. The whole conception of a person who is living in time and becoming that we identify with and feel that we are the center/controller and separate from experience.

justindesilva
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by justindesilva » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:01 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:49 am
If you logout from a game server or delete a mmorpg character is that a cessation of being? To a certain extent it is. Is that annihilation? As for your character and the experiences derived from the game and interaction with the game world it is and to that extent it is annihilation.

This not meant to be an analogy or anything just showing how one can talk about such concepts.
Lord budda in dammacakkapavattana sutta expressed cessation and that was only cessation if dukka.

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1005
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:57 pm

cessation of existence
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

Dinsdale
Posts: 5614
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:08 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:57 pm
cessation of existence
So cessation of the taints rather than cessation of being?

"I'll be back...hasta la vista.." :guns: :jumping:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1005
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:51 am

idk, the english words may obfuscate
being is defined in suttas by craving, delight
only suffering arises and only suffering passes away
how do you describe the destination of a fire that has gone out (due to a lack of fuel (upādāna))? it's a false question
Last edited by Dhammarakkhito on Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1005
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:52 am

arahant is not reborn, objectively stated. it has been called extinction
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

auto
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by auto » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:08 am

Dead matter is made organic by not moving but at the same time wanting to move(plants rooted to the ground can't move, sunlight or warmth or any other trigger triggers life desire to move)
Nibbana is when you satisfy that urge to move. That for plants is to grow fruits and see generation.

Dinsdale
Posts: 5614
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:25 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:51 am
being is defined in suttas by craving, delight
Bhava ( existence or becoming in the three realms ) arises in dependence upon upādāna ( clinging ), which in turn arises in dependence upon tanha ( craving ).

Cessation of tanha ( craving ) does not necessarily mean the simultaneous cessation of bhava ( existence or becoming ).
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:37 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:51 am
only suffering arises and only suffering passes away
this is true, but not the whole truth

cessation of existence is true, but not the whole truth

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: autoi999, Baidu [Spider], Dhammarakkhito and 83 guests