Is Nibbana cessation of being?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:04 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:52 pm
There is three type of Bhava.
Kamma Bhava, Rupa Bhava and Arupa Bhava.
Kama (sensual) Bhava, Rupa (material) Bhava and Arupa (immaterial) Bhava.
kāma
masculine
pleasure; lust; enjoyment; an object of sexual enjoyment.

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:31 am

Greetings Spiny,
Spiny Norman wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:43 pm
Could you be more specific about which sankhata dhammas cease in your view?
All of them, but as you know from previous discussions you have a different understanding of what constitutes a sankhata-dhamma than I.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:04 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:53 pm
I was under the impression that as Nibbana is unconditioned or free from conditions, causes, etc. it cannot be the cessation of being/non-being or involve the destruction or creation of anything, except as a metaphor for “free of” or “freeing.”
Obviously this impression is incorrect given the Pali suttas could not be any more explicit:
154. O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.

Dhammapada
And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the calming of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.

MN 26
This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.

The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodhi
And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being (bhavanirodhāya), their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.

Iti 49 https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/ireland
On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being (bhavanirodho); with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

MN 38 https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:43 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:22 am
SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:10 am
Is Nibbana a cessation of being?
Yes.
no, no, no

nirvana is a worthy goal, however suicide is not a worthy goal

we seek nirvana rather than annihilation

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DooDoot
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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:50 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:43 am
no, no, no
Nibbana is the nirodha of bhava. Why falsify the teachings?

As for the translation of 'being' for 'bhava', maybe this needs to be examined more closely.

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:54 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:50 am
As for the translation of 'being' for 'bhava', maybe this needs to be examined more closely.
close to the actual, but not completely accurate or exact

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:10 am
But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna.
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn60

Is Nibbana a cessation of being?
and also
Is cessation means annihilation?
I think MN60 is just saying that if you have confidence that cessation of being is possible, then you are more likely to attain Nibbana.

"But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna."

"Being" here is bhava, also translated as "existence" and "becoming".

I don't think it's saying that Nibbana = cessation of bhava. In the suttas Nibbana is described as the cessation of the taints, not the cessation of bhava.

In SN12.2 bhava is described as existence in the three realms:

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:46 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am
SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:10 am
But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna.
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn60

Is Nibbana a cessation of being?
and also
Is cessation means annihilation?
I think MN60 is just saying that if you have confidence that cessation of being is possible, then you are more likely to attain Nibbana.

"But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna."

"Being" here is bhava, also translated as "existence" and "becoming".

I don't think it's saying that Nibbana = cessation of bhava. In the suttas Nibbana is described as the cessation of the taints, not the cessation of bhava.

In SN12.2 bhava is described as existence in the three realms:

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
The cessation of the personalization of existence is a condition for Nibbana. It doesn't cause it because Nibbana would be a result, a conditioned appearance.

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:49 am

If you logout from a game server or delete a mmorpg character is that a cessation of being? To a certain extent it is. Is that annihilation? As for your character and the experiences derived from the game and interaction with the game world it is and to that extent it is annihilation.

This not meant to be an analogy or anything just showing how one can talk about such concepts.

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:28 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:46 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am
SarathW wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:10 am
But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna.
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn60

Is Nibbana a cessation of being?
and also
Is cessation means annihilation?
I think MN60 is just saying that if you have confidence that cessation of being is possible, then you are more likely to attain Nibbana.

"But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna."

"Being" here is bhava, also translated as "existence" and "becoming".

I don't think it's saying that Nibbana = cessation of bhava. In the suttas Nibbana is described as the cessation of the taints, not the cessation of bhava.

In SN12.2 bhava is described as existence in the three realms:

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
The cessation of the personalization of existence is a condition for Nibbana. It doesn't cause it because Nibbana would be a result, a conditioned appearance.
Could you explain what you mean by the "personalisation" of existence? Like regarding the aggregates as "me" and "mine"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:06 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:28 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:46 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am


I think MN60 is just saying that if you have confidence that cessation of being is possible, then you are more likely to attain Nibbana.

"But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna."

"Being" here is bhava, also translated as "existence" and "becoming".

I don't think it's saying that Nibbana = cessation of bhava. In the suttas Nibbana is described as the cessation of the taints, not the cessation of bhava.

In SN12.2 bhava is described as existence in the three realms:

“And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
The cessation of the personalization of existence is a condition for Nibbana. It doesn't cause it because Nibbana would be a result, a conditioned appearance.
Could you explain what you mean by the "personalisation" of existence? Like regarding the aggregates as "me" and "mine"?
Basically, yes. The whole conception of a person who is living in time and becoming that we identify with and feel that we are the center/controller and separate from experience.

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by justindesilva » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:01 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:49 am
If you logout from a game server or delete a mmorpg character is that a cessation of being? To a certain extent it is. Is that annihilation? As for your character and the experiences derived from the game and interaction with the game world it is and to that extent it is annihilation.

This not meant to be an analogy or anything just showing how one can talk about such concepts.
Lord budda in dammacakkapavattana sutta expressed cessation and that was only cessation if dukka.

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:57 pm

cessation of existence
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:08 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:57 pm
cessation of existence
So cessation of the taints rather than cessation of being?

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Re: Is Nibbana cessation of being?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:51 am

idk, the english words may obfuscate
being is defined in suttas by craving, delight
only suffering arises and only suffering passes away
how do you describe the destination of a fire that has gone out (due to a lack of fuel (upādāna))? it's a false question
Last edited by Dhammarakkhito on Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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