Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

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khemindas
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Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by khemindas » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:43 am

Here an interesting discovering:
Here is a curious information, it appears in the Sutta-nipata mentions yogic practice, used in both Hindu and Taoist yoga, namely, pressing the tongue to the roof in mouth:

"Further than this, wisdom still I teach:
Be like a razor’s edge,
tongue-tip upon the palate,
thus be restrained in belly."

Snp 3.11

paul
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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by paul » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:44 am

It's nothing to do with yoga, it's one of five methods of removing distracting thoughts described in MN 20:

"If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his reflection on the removal of a source of unskillful thoughts, he should with clenched teeth and the tongue pressing on the palate, restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation)."

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khemindas
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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by khemindas » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:21 am

paul wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:44 am
It's nothing to do with yoga, it's one of five methods of removing distracting thoughts described in MN 20:

"If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his reflection on the removal of a source of unskillful thoughts, he should with clenched teeth and the tongue pressing on the palate, restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation)."
If you learn yoga, than you will understand, that this practice is directly connected with yoga. You can read more information in next arcticle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khecar%C4%AB_mudr%C4%81

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Dhammanando
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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:06 am

khemindas wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:21 am
If you learn yoga, than you will understand, that this practice is directly connected with yoga. You can read more information in next arcticle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khecar%C4%AB_mudr%C4%81
I doubt it has anything to do with the khecarī mudrā. The Pali says: "jivhāya tāluṃ āhacca". That is, the tongue is in contact with the hard palate. Not with the velum or nose cavity.

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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by khemindas » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:55 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:06 am
khemindas wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:21 am
If you learn yoga, than you will understand, that this practice is directly connected with yoga. You can read more information in next arcticle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khecar%C4%AB_mudr%C4%81
I doubt it has anything to do with the khecarī mudrā. The Pali says: "jivhāya tāluṃ āhacca". That is, the tongue is in contact with the hard palate. Not with the velum or nose cavity.
Actually is also included. Because there are three positions, water, wind and fire positions you can read in article
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/three-po ... na-qigong/
You can see on image also
https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQA ... Mjk2YQ.jpg

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Sam Vara
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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:52 am

khemindas wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:43 am
Here an interesting discovering:
Here is a curious information, it appears in the Sutta-nipata mentions yogic practice, used in both Hindu and Taoist yoga, namely, pressing the tongue to the roof in mouth:

"Further than this, wisdom still I teach:
Be like a razor’s edge,
tongue-tip upon the palate,
thus be restrained in belly."

Snp 3.11
Does the yoga somehow relate to the belly here? I know next to nothing about yoga, but this reference to the belly makes me wonder whether this is something to do with the restraint of appetite. Restraining the desire for food features in an earlier verse:
Empty-bellied, with little food,
few in wishes, greedless too,
the wishless he, and hungerless...

SarathW
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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by SarathW » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:01 pm

khemindas wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:43 am
Here an interesting discovering:
Here is a curious information, it appears in the Sutta-nipata mentions yogic practice, used in both Hindu and Taoist yoga, namely, pressing the tongue to the roof in mouth:

"Further than this, wisdom still I teach:
Be like a razor’s edge,
tongue-tip upon the palate,
thus be restrained in belly."

Snp 3.11
Isn't cross leged and keeping the body erect also a Yogic practice?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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khemindas
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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by khemindas » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:07 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:01 pm
khemindas wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:43 am
Here an interesting discovering:
Here is a curious information, it appears in the Sutta-nipata mentions yogic practice, used in both Hindu and Taoist yoga, namely, pressing the tongue to the roof in mouth:

"Further than this, wisdom still I teach:
Be like a razor’s edge,
tongue-tip upon the palate,
thus be restrained in belly."

Snp 3.11
Isn't cross leged and keeping the body erect also a Yogic practice?
one of them, some sort of Asana.

Saengnapha
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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:51 pm

The placing of the tip of the tongue on the palette just before the teeth and the attention placed just below the navel with the breath being drawn down to it (called dantian in Chinese) is taught both in Buddhist, Daoist, and Japanese sitting and standing practices. Even the martial arts use this commonly. Indian yogic practices also teach these methods. This works with cultivating the energetic aspects in deeper meditative states that are usually reserved for more individual instruction from the teacher. But, tongue touching behind the teeth is common throughout Buddhist schools to my knowledge. Dantian technique is more common in East Asia.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:55 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:51 pm
The placing of the tip of the tongue on the palette just before the teeth and the attention placed just below the navel with the breath being drawn down to it (called dantian in Chinese) is taught both in Buddhist, Daoist, and Japanese sitting and standing practices. Even the martial arts use this commonly. Indian yogic practices also teach these methods. This works with cultivating the energetic aspects in deeper meditative states that are usually reserved for more individual instruction from the teacher. But, tongue touching behind the teeth is common throughout Buddhist schools to my knowledge. Dantian technique is more common in East Asia.
Yes, I have known several meditation teachers talk about this. Do you know whether there is any mention of it in the Pali Canon, or whether its use in meditation practice is due to later localised additions?

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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by 2600htz » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:49 pm

paul wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:44 am
It's nothing to do with yoga, it's one of five methods of removing distracting thoughts described in MN 20:

"If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his reflection on the removal of a source of unskillful thoughts, he should with clenched teeth and the tongue pressing on the palate, restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation)."
Hello:

A funny thing is that the same practice is listed as one of the things the Buddha did while being a bodhisattva and fall into the "wrong effort" category.
I just can´t imagine the Buddha teaching to "beat down and crush the mind with mind".



MN-36 Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka

"I thought: 'Suppose that I, clenching my teeth and pressing my tongue against the roof of my mouth, were to beat down, constrain, & crush my mind with my awareness.' So, clenching my teeth and pressing my tongue against the roof of my mouth, I beat down, constrained, & crushed my mind with my awareness. Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, & crush him, in the same way I beat down, constrained, & crushed my mind with my awareness. As I did so, sweat poured from my armpits. And although tireless persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established, my body was aroused & uncalm because of the painful exertion. But the painful feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

Regards.

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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by DooDoot » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:17 am

khemindas wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:43 am
Here an interesting discovering:
Here is a curious information, it appears in the Sutta-nipata mentions yogic practice, used in both Hindu and Taoist yoga, namely, pressing the tongue to the roof in mouth:

"Further than this, wisdom still I teach:
Be like a razor’s edge,
tongue-tip upon the palate,
thus be restrained in belly."

Snp 3.11
It is merely a simile or metaphor. The Buddha did not teach Hindu hatha yoga but taught letting go (vossagga) instead.
Simile: a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g. as brave as a lion ).
Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops the mindfulness enlightenment factor, which is supported by seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, and ripens in relinquishment (vossagga). He develops the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor…the energy enlightenment factor…the rapture enlightenment factor…the tranquillity enlightenment factor…the concentration enlightenment factor…the equanimity enlightenment factor, which is supported by seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, and ripens in relinquishment (vossagga).

Anapanasati Sutta
Further than this, wisdom still I teach:
Be like a razor’s edge,
tongue-tip upon the palate,
thus be restrained in belly.

Be not indolent in mind,
but neither think too much,
and be free from all carrion-stench:
aim at life of purity.
"Be free from all carrion-stench" obviously does not refer to Hindu vegetarianism; which is more sīlabbata-parāmāsa.

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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:54 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:55 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:51 pm
The placing of the tip of the tongue on the palette just before the teeth and the attention placed just below the navel with the breath being drawn down to it (called dantian in Chinese) is taught both in Buddhist, Daoist, and Japanese sitting and standing practices. Even the martial arts use this commonly. Indian yogic practices also teach these methods. This works with cultivating the energetic aspects in deeper meditative states that are usually reserved for more individual instruction from the teacher. But, tongue touching behind the teeth is common throughout Buddhist schools to my knowledge. Dantian technique is more common in East Asia.
Yes, I have known several meditation teachers talk about this. Do you know whether there is any mention of it in the Pali Canon, or whether its use in meditation practice is due to later localised additions?
I'm not much of a scholar, sorry.

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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by chownah » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:48 am

Teeth clenched and tongue pressed hard on the upper palate is pretty much a description of what one often does with strong physical exertion.....which seems to be what the buddha was talking about (As I did so, sweat poured from my armpits. And although tireless persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established, my body was aroused & uncalm because of the painful exertion. FROM:MN-36 Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka).
chownah

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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by khemindas » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:17 am
khemindas wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:43 am
Here an interesting discovering:
Here is a curious information, it appears in the Sutta-nipata mentions yogic practice, used in both Hindu and Taoist yoga, namely, pressing the tongue to the roof in mouth:

"Further than this, wisdom still I teach:
Be like a razor’s edge,
tongue-tip upon the palate,
thus be restrained in belly."

Snp 3.11
It is merely a simile or metaphor. The Buddha did not teach Hindu hatha yoga but taught letting go (vossagga) instead.
Simile: a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g. as brave as a lion ).
Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops the mindfulness enlightenment factor, which is supported by seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, and ripens in relinquishment (vossagga). He develops the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor…the energy enlightenment factor…the rapture enlightenment factor…the tranquillity enlightenment factor…the concentration enlightenment factor…the equanimity enlightenment factor, which is supported by seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, and ripens in relinquishment (vossagga).

Anapanasati Sutta
Further than this, wisdom still I teach:
Be like a razor’s edge,
tongue-tip upon the palate,
thus be restrained in belly.

Be not indolent in mind,
but neither think too much,
and be free from all carrion-stench:
aim at life of purity.
"Be free from all carrion-stench" obviously does not refer to Hindu vegetarianism; which is more sīlabbata-parāmāsa.
But in next translation it doesn't looks like metaphore:
"Pressing tongue against palate, restrain your stomach."
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn ... .than.html

Also what I've heard from people who combining Quigong,Daoist Yoga, Raja Yoga, Hatha Yoga and other similar practices, that while they practice those practices together with Satipatthana and Anapanasati, the progress is going quite faster. I don't mention here Vajrayana practices, because they are quite different from Quigong and Yoga, because Quigong and Yoga both have as aim fast jhanic absorption, while Hindu and Vajrayana tantra not.

DooDoot
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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by DooDoot » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:34 am

khemindas wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:51 am
But in next translation it doesn't looks like metaphore:
"Pressing tongue against palate, restrain your stomach."
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn ... .than.html
It is the metaphor.
khemindas wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:51 am
Also what I've heard from people who combining Quigong,Daoist Yoga, Raja Yoga, Hatha Yoga and other similar practices, that while they practice those practices together with Satipatthana and Anapanasati, the progress is going quite faster.
This sounds impossible because the Lord Buddha declared Satipatthana and Anapanasati are the direct path. Since many listeners in the suttas attained stream-entry from merely listening, how can doing physical exercises that distort, block & suppress the flow of prana & mental energy be faster? If yoga was faster, all of the sexy female yoga teachers in the West would be arahants.
khemindas wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:51 am
I don't mention here Vajrayana practices, because they are quite different from Quigong and Yoga, because Quigong and Yoga both have as aim fast jhanic absorption, while Hindu and Vajrayana tantra not.
The Pali suttas teach the method to reach jhana is by letting go (vossagga). Any imaginary "jhana" not accompanied by letting-go is obviously not Noble Path Jhana in Buddhism but appears to be another ideology. In Buddhism, Noble Jhana is supported by the seven other factors of the Noble Path. The suttas teach a Noble Path, in which Right View comes 1st or leads.
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go (vossagga), attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.... Of those, right view is the forerunner.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This article might be helpful: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magaz ... -body.html

Saengnapha
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Re: Yogic practice in Sutta-Nipata

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:41 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:34 am
khemindas wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:51 am
But in next translation it doesn't looks like metaphore:
"Pressing tongue against palate, restrain your stomach."
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn ... .than.html
It is the metaphor.
khemindas wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:51 am
Also what I've heard from people who combining Quigong,Daoist Yoga, Raja Yoga, Hatha Yoga and other similar practices, that while they practice those practices together with Satipatthana and Anapanasati, the progress is going quite faster.
This sounds impossible because the Lord Buddha declared Satipatthana and Anapanasati are the direct path. Since many listeners in the suttas attained stream-entry from merely listening, how can doing physical exercises that distort, block & suppress the flow of prana & mental energy be faster? If yoga was faster, all of the sexy female yoga teachers in the West would be arahants.
khemindas wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:51 am
I don't mention here Vajrayana practices, because they are quite different from Quigong and Yoga, because Quigong and Yoga both have as aim fast jhanic absorption, while Hindu and Vajrayana tantra not.
The Pali suttas teach the method to reach jhana is by letting go (vossagga). Any imaginary "jhana" not accompanied by letting-go is obviously not Noble Path Jhana in Buddhism but appears to be another ideology. In Buddhism, Noble Jhana is supported by the seven other factors of the Noble Path. The suttas teach a Noble Path, in which Right View comes 1st or leads.
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go (vossagga), attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.... Of those, right view is the forerunner.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This article might be helpful: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magaz ... -body.html
What you are talking about has nothing to do with keeping the tongue on the palate and breathing in to the dantian.
Practitioners who mix and match don't understand this process, but what to do?

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