The body

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PuerAzaelis
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The body

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:55 am

“It is in this fathom-long body with its perceptions and its mind that I describe the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world.” Saṃyutta Nikāya II 36

What did he mean by this?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

Saengnapha
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Re: The body

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:07 am

As my friend U.G. said, there is only the body and its activities. The natural state is physical. There is no entity inside, aside, or otherwise, that is experiencing anything. There is only the body in harmony with itself, the real paticca-samupadda as the Buddha taught.

SarathW
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Re: The body

Post by SarathW » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:17 am

This phrase got a deep meaning.
In simple terms I would say that the so called world is a mental construct (origin of world).
No two people will perceive the world same way.
Hence the world is perceive thorough the five aggregate.
Because the origination of world is the result of the five aggregate it's cessation also has to come from the same.
Noble Eightfold Path also to be practiced by the five aggregate it self.

That is how I understand it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Mkoll
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Re: The body

Post by Mkoll » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:22 am

The Buddha referred to the world primarily in 2 ways.

1) He referred to it in the conventional way, exemplified by this bolded stock passage often found in the suttas:
SN 22.56 wrote:So long as I did not directly know as they really are the five aggregates subject to clinging in four phases, I did not claim to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its devas, Mara, and Brahma, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans. But when I directly knew all this as it really is, then I claimed to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with … its devas and humans.
2) The other way he'd refer to it is in a way I'd cautiously coin the "subjective world" as explained by the aggregates, sense bases/objects/contact/consciousness, dependent origination, Four Noble Truths, etc. The quote you gave is a good example. Here is another, which helpfully fleshes that quote out and should answer your question:
SN 12.44 wrote:At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the origin and the passing away of the world. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds … In dependence on the nose and odours … In dependence on the tongue and tastes … In dependence on the body and tactile objects … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging … existence … birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds … … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging … cessation of existence … cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.”
He could also describe the world as something that combines elements of both, e.g.:
SN 35.82 wrote:Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One … and said to him: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the world, the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, is it said ‘the world’?”

“It is disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world. And what is disintegrating? The eye, bhikkhu, is disintegrating, forms are disintegrating, eye-consciousness is disintegrating, eye-contact is disintegrating, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition … that too is disintegrating. The ear is disintegrating … The mind is disintegrating … Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … that too is disintegrating. It is disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world.”
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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DooDoot
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Re: The body

Post by DooDoot » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:35 am

Mkoll wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:22 am
The other way he'd refer to it is in a way I'd cautiously coin the "subjective world" as explained by the aggregates, sense bases/objects/contact/consciousness, dependent origination, Four Noble Truths, etc. The quote you gave is a good example. Here is another, which helpfully fleshes that quote out and should answer your question:
SN 12.44 wrote:At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the origin and the passing away of the world. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds … In dependence on the nose and odours … In dependence on the tongue and tastes … In dependence on the body and tactile objects … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging … existence … birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds … … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging … cessation of existence … cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.”
It seems the (mere non-clung-to) aggregates & sense bases/objects/contact/consciousness are not the "subjective world" given they are operating during both the origin (samudayo) & passing away (atthaṅgamo) of the world.

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Mkoll
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Re: The body

Post by Mkoll » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:45 am

I hesitated to use the word subjective because it is so loaded and tends to reify a self-subject experiencing/observing an object. Maybe elementary would be better? I'm open to suggestions. The bottom line though is that the Buddha used "the world" in different ways.

It seems the "fathom-long body" in the OP's quote is self-explanatory in that it refers to the conventional body. But are there any other explanations?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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DooDoot
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Re: The body

Post by DooDoot » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:57 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:55 am
“It is in this fathom-long body with its perceptions and its mind that I describe the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world.” Saṃyutta Nikāya II 36

What did he mean by this?
The word 'world' ('loka') here appears to be a synonym for 'suffering', which is why it used here in the four noble truths formula. The concluding verse of the sutta appears to confirm this, as does SN 12.44 (posted above by MKoll) & also SN 12.15.
By walking one can never reach
The end and limit of the world,
Yet there is no release from suffering
Without reaching the world’s end.

Hence the wise one who knows the world,
The one who has lived the holy life,
Will reach the end of the world,
Knowing the world’s end, at peace.
He no more longs for this world
Nor for any other
.

AN 4.45; SN 2.26
The Lokavagga of the Dhammapada (here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html) often provides the same sentiment, where the term 'the world' or 'worldliness' is used in a negative way; similar to as often done in the New Testament, particularly in the Gospel of John.
Now we shall say something about the word "world" (loka). In everyday language, the word "world" refers to the Earth, this physical world, flat or round or however you conceive it. The "world" as the physical Earth is everyday language. In Dhamma language, however, the word "world" refers to worldly (lokiya) mental states, the worldly stages in the scale of mental development-that is to say, dukkha. The condition that is impermanent, changing, unsatisfactory-this is the worldly condition of the mind. And this is what is meant by the "world" in Dhamma language. Hence it is said that the world is dukkha, dukkha is the world. When the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths (ariya-sacca), he sometimes used the term "world" and sometimes the term "dukkha" They are one and the same. For instance, he spoke of:

- the world;

- the cause of the arising of the world;

- the extinction of the world;

- the path that brings about the extinction of the world.

What he meant was:

- dukkha;

- the cause of dukkha;

- the extinction of dukkha;

- the path that brings about the extinction of dukkha.

So in the language of the Buddha, the language of Dhamma, the word "world" refers to dukkha; suffering and the world are one and the same.

Taken another way, the word "world" refers to things that are low, shallow, not profound, and fall short of their highest potential. For instance, we speak of such and such a thing as "worldly", meaning that it is not Dhamma. This is another meaning of the word "world" in Dhamma language. "World" does not always refer simply to this Earth, as in everyday language.

https://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/Truth/ ... nguage.htm
:alien:
Mkoll wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:45 am
It seems the "fathom-long body" in the OP's quote is self-explanatory in that it refers to the conventional body. But are there any other explanations?
It seems the word "body" here might be conventional or physical because the Pali is 'kaḷevara' rather than 'kaya'. This said, I'm not sure.

chownah
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Re: The body

Post by chownah » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:59 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:55 am
“It is in this fathom-long body with its perceptions and its mind that I describe the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world.” Saṃyutta Nikāya II 36

What did he mean by this?
"It is in this fathom-long body with its perceptions and its mind "....this is namarupa...
He is saying that it is as worldlings that we fabricate views of the world.....I guess.....don't know for sure......
chownah

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Sam Vara
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Re: The body

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:16 am

I think it is a poetic way of saying that the world is our experience.

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