It seems that Buddha wanted to differentiate the BV practice by the average householder and the recluse. It appears that BV should be practiced in conjunction with the four Jhanas to qualify for Noble Eightfold Path.
"And what are the six kinds of household equanimity? The equanimity that arises when a foolish, deluded person — a run-of-the-mill, untaught person who has not conquered his limitations or the results of action [2] & who is blind to danger [3] — sees a form with the eye. Such equanimity does not go beyond the form, which is why it is called household equanimity. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)>
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Is it possible to practice Brahama Vihara without reaching the fourth Jhana?
Re: Is it possible to practice Brahama Vihara without reaching the fourth Jhana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Is it possible to practice Brahama Vihara without reaching the fourth Jhana?
But my understanding is that Metta is about saving yourself: one should protect one's "universal goodwill" (translation per TB) like a mother protects an only child so one will not create unwholesome kamma (e.g. break precepts) and suffer its consequences, such as potentially undermining one's progress on the path (and AN 8:63 as quoted describes BV first, so somebody must have thought it was okay -- which isn't to say it has to be first).
[Edit: And metta supports sila which gladdens the mind and supports concentration.]
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
Re: Is it possible to practice Brahama Vihara without reaching the fourth Jhana?
Hi SarathW, I don't think the discourse you linked to is suggesting a householder BV practice; it is describing a lesser (non-liberative) type of equanimity that occurs in the uninstructed, an equanimity that goes more or less unnoticed between efforts at sense gratification. That's how I'm understanding it anyway (with the aid of TB's notes).SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:08 am It seems that Buddha wanted to differentiate the BV practice by the average householder and the recluse....
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
Re: Is it possible to practice Brahama Vihara without reaching the fourth Jhana?
Agree.JohnK wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:42 pmBut my understanding is that Metta is about saving yourself: one should protect one's "universal goodwill" (translation per TB) like a mother protects an only child so one will not create unwholesome kamma (e.g. break precepts) and suffer its consequences, such as potentially undermining one's progress on the path (and AN 8:63 as quoted describes BV first, so somebody must have thought it was okay -- which isn't to say it has to be first).
[Edit: And metta supports sila which gladdens the mind and supports concentration.]
Even in practicing Metta, you extend Metta to yourself first.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Is it possible to practice Brahama Vihara without reaching the fourth Jhana?
Possibly you are getting overly inspired above & departing from MN 52, which is the sutta of this topic. While the Eightfold Path has a metta & compassion or non-ill-will/non-harming-non-cruelty component in its 2nd factor, MN 52 appears to be about big mind universal BV, which probably requires are very pure & exalted mind to perform. A mind that has not reached jhana obviously still has traces of ill-will & other hindrances; despite is apparent good intentions.JohnK wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:42 pmBut my understanding is that Metta is about saving yourself: one should protect one's "universal goodwill" (translation per TB) like a mother protects an only child so one will not create unwholesome kamma (e.g. break precepts) and suffer its consequences, such as potentially undermining one's progress on the path (and AN 8:63 as quoted describes BV first, so somebody must have thought it was okay -- which isn't to say it has to be first).
[Edit: And metta supports sila which gladdens the mind and supports concentration.]
Again, a bhikkhu abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will.... Again, a bhikkhu abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with equanimity…
MN 52
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Is it possible to practice Brahama Vihara without reaching the fourth Jhana?
Thank you, DooDoot, that's a kind way to put it.
On MN 52: I think this sutta is much less about the relationship between BV and jhana and much more about "the ONE thing" through which the unliberated mind becomes liberated (the question asked of Ananda which the rest of the sutta answers). Ananda, somewhat ironically but very effectively for making the point I think, discusses ELEVEN possibilities (4 jhana, 4 BV, and 3 formless attainments), none of which by themselves are liberating. The only ONE thing that applies across the board for liberation is seeing any one of the eleven as conditioned, volitionally produced, subject to cessation. Nicely done, Ananda.
But I wouldn't look to this sutta to understand the relationship between BV and jhana; that's not the topic. Sorry, I can't say which is the right sutta or suttas where this may be directly addressed. Maybe this thread will continue that exploration.
(Glad to be a member of this community.)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
Re: Is it possible to practice Brahama Vihara without reaching the fourth Jhana?
It looks like you have summed up the sutta very well. Blessings.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Is it possible to practice Brahama Vihara without reaching the fourth Jhana?
Agree.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”