How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

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binocular
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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by binocular » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:23 pm

manas wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:03 am
let's be honest: body odour can be pretty disgusting. Should we attempt to not get aversive, or just change carriages? What would you do?
Do you step in dog poo? Why not?

A smell that one perceives as foul normally indicates that there's something wrong, and that it may be dangerous for one's health. It's thus natural to want to avoid it, on account of self-preservation.

Smells aren't necessarily innocent at all, and disliking them isn't just some idle preference. For example, when a dead body decomposes, it emits potentially toxic gases. It's why those performing autopsies have to wear protective gear, depending on the level of decomposition.


I think dealing with my aversion to foul smells has to do with coming to terms with living in a dangerous world while having a body that can become ill.

paul
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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by paul » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:54 pm

Contemplate the foul:

"Sick, putrid, unclean:
look, Nanda, at this physical heap.
Through contemplation of the foul,
develop your mind,
make it one, well-centered.

As this [your body], so that.
As that, so this.
It gives off a foul stench,
(the body) the delight of fools.” —Therigatha, 5.4

Cycle of impermanence:
The cycle of impermanence has three phases: (1) origination; (2) maturity; (3) dissolution (ageing, sickness, death). Foul odours are an indication of the dissolution phase. Due to primal tendencies the mind has a preference for the ‘ripeness’ part of the cycle, therefore contemplation of the dissolution phase at every opportunity must be systematically cultivated to counter that pernicious influence.

"Even though I was endowed with such fortune, such total refinement, the thought occurred to me: 'When an untaught, run-of-the-mill person, himself subject to death, not beyond death, sees another who is dead, he is horrified, humiliated, & disgusted, oblivious to himself that he too is subject to death, not beyond death. And if I — who am subject to death, not beyond death — were to be horrified, humiliated, & disgusted on seeing another person who is dead, that would not be fitting for me.' As I noticed this, the living person's intoxication with life entirely dropped away.”—-AN 3.38

Systematic development leads to shift in perception:
“Continuity in developing awareness of impermanence is essential if it is really to affect one’s mental condition. Sustained contemplation of impermanence leads to a shift in one’s normal way of experiencing reality, which hitherto tacitly assumed the temporal stability of the perceiver and the perceived objects. Once both are experienced as changing processes, all notions of stable existence and substantiality vanish, thereby radically reshaping one’s paradigm of experience.

Contemplation of impermanence has to be comprehensive, for if any aspect of experience is still taken to be permanent, awakening will be impossible. A comprehensive realization of impermanence is a distinctive feature of stream-entry. This is the case to such an extent that a stream-enterer is incapable of believing any phenomenon to be permanent.”—-“Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization”, Ven Analayo.

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by aflatun » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:13 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:23 pm
It's why those performing autopsies have to wear protective gear, depending on the level of decomposition.
We ALWAYS wear protective gear during autopsy, regardless of level of decomposition. Although you will see some old timers handle organs with bare hands :rofl: :clap:

And if you pay attention that smell will haunt you in the kitchen later on...
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:05 am

aflatun wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:13 pm
binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:23 pm
It's why those performing autopsies have to wear protective gear, depending on the level of decomposition.
We ALWAYS wear protective gear during autopsy, regardless of level of decomposition. Although you will see some old timers handle organs with bare hands :rofl: :clap:

And if you pay attention that smell will haunt you in the kitchen later on...
INdeed, the smell that arose when incising the liver or heart in the autopsy this morning smells just like the smell which arises while cutting the liver or heart which one prepares for dinner that evening.....leading to thoughts of........hannibal lecter?
chownah

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:11 am

paul wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:54 pm

Systematic development leads to shift in perception:
“Continuity in developing awareness of impermanence is essential if it is really to affect one’s mental condition. Sustained contemplation of impermanence leads to a shift in one’s normal way of experiencing reality, which hitherto tacitly assumed the temporal stability of the perceiver and the perceived objects. Once both are experienced as changing processes, all notions of stable existence and substantiality vanish, thereby radically reshaping one’s paradigm of experience.

Contemplation of impermanence has to be comprehensive, for if any aspect of experience is still taken to be permanent, awakening will be impossible. A comprehensive realization of impermanence is a distinctive feature of stream-entry. This is the case to such an extent that a stream-enterer is incapable of believing any phenomenon to be permanent.”—-“Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization”, Ven Analayo.
I think this Analayo quote is optimistic at best. Intellectually speaking, a sotapanna still is perceiving in the same way as he did before. What has changed is his overt reactions to experience, his previous automatic habitual approach. He straightens his affairs out and is not troubled by impermanence, but has not ended the dream of existence, which is the real paradigm shift that seems to be reserved for the Arahant. The sotapanna does not have a comprehensive realization of impermanence. To me, this would be the release that the Buddha spoke of in awakening. Nirodha Samapatti is far from the stream winner's experience.

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:24 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:11 am
I think this Analayo quote is optimistic at best.
When Anālayo says "a stream-enterer is incapable of believing any phenomenon to be permanent," he is merely paraphrasing what the Buddha said.
“It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view (diṭṭhisampanna) could treat any formation as permanent—there is no such possibility.”

“It is possible that an ordinary person (puthujjana) might treat some formation as permanent—there is such a possibility.”

(Bahudhātuka Sutta MN.iii.64; = AN.I.26-7; Vibh. 335-6)

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by SarathW » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:30 am

A smell that one perceives as foul normally indicates that there's something wrong, and that it may be dangerous for one's health.
No smell is something mentally conditioned.
Young children thrive on bad order.
Some people hate fish others hate meat etc.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:51 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:24 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:11 am
I think this Analayo quote is optimistic at best.
When Anālayo says "a stream-enterer is incapable of believing any phenomenon to be permanent," he is merely paraphrasing what the Buddha said.
“It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view (diṭṭhisampanna) could treat any formation as permanent—there is no such possibility.”

“It is possible that an ordinary person (puthujjana) might treat some formation as permanent—there is such a possibility.”

(Bahudhātuka Sutta MN.iii.64; = AN.I.26-7; Vibh. 335-6)
Is Samma Ditthi perfected in a stream winner or is it still a work in progress? If it is perfected, why are their more stages? The sotapanna is not a finished product, so to speak. His thoughts are being re-oriented, but he is still very much conditioned by thoughts, Samma Sankappa. Establishing Sila is necessary, no doubt, but why would this make someone incapable of believing any phenomenon to be permanent?

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:55 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:51 am
Is Samma Ditthi perfected in a stream winner or is it still a work in progress?
It's perfected. The Dhammacakkhu that arises at stream entry is "spotless" and "immaculate":
Just as a clean cloth with all marks removed would take dye evenly, so too, while the brahmin Brahmāyu sat there, the spotless immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in him: “All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.” Then the brahmin Brahmāyu saw the Dhamma, attained the Dhamma, understood the Dhamma, fathomed the Dhamma; he crossed beyond doubt, did away with perplexity, gained intrepidity, and became independent of others in the Teacher’s Dispensation.
It is only in the progress leading up to stream entry that right view comes in degrees: with asāvas, free of āsavas, based on hearing, based on thinking, based on development, etc.
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:51 am
If it is perfected, why are their more stages?
Because whereas the lower fetters are eliminated by vision, the higher ones are to be eliminated by development.

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by paul » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:07 am

“Of the perversions (vipallasa), the following are eliminated by the first path knowledge (sotapatti): the perversions of perception, consciousness and views, that the impermanent is permanent and what is not a self is a self; further, the perversion of views that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. By the third path- knowledge (anagamita) are eliminated: the perversions of perception and consciousness that the impure is pure. By the fourth path-knowledge (arahatta) are eliminated the perversions of perception and consciousness that the painful is pleasant” (Vism. XXII,68).—-Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka.

This shows how perceptions and states of mind are based on views, but even when the views have been eliminated the corresponding perceptions and states of mind still take time to eradicate.
Last edited by paul on Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:31 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:55 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:51 am
Is Samma Ditthi perfected in a stream winner or is it still a work in progress?
It's perfected. The Dhammacakkhu that arises at stream entry is "spotless" and "immaculate":
Just as a clean cloth with all marks removed would take dye evenly, so too, while the brahmin Brahmāyu sat there, the spotless immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in him: “All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.” Then the brahmin Brahmāyu saw the Dhamma, attained the Dhamma, understood the Dhamma, fathomed the Dhamma; he crossed beyond doubt, did away with perplexity, gained intrepidity, and became independent of others in the Teacher’s Dispensation.
Reference? LInk?
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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:06 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:55 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:51 am
Is Samma Ditthi perfected in a stream winner or is it still a work in progress?
It's perfected. The Dhammacakkhu that arises at stream entry is "spotless" and "immaculate":
Just as a clean cloth with all marks removed would take dye evenly, so too, while the brahmin Brahmāyu sat there, the spotless immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in him: “All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.” Then the brahmin Brahmāyu saw the Dhamma, attained the Dhamma, understood the Dhamma, fathomed the Dhamma; he crossed beyond doubt, did away with perplexity, gained intrepidity, and became independent of others in the Teacher’s Dispensation.
It is only in the progress leading up to stream entry that right view comes in degrees: with asāvas, free of āsavas, based on hearing, based on thinking, based on development, etc.
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:51 am
If it is perfected, why are their more stages?
Because whereas the lower fetters are eliminated by vision, the higher ones are to be eliminated by development.
Bhante, no offense, but I remain unconvinced of your explanation. All phenomenon are conditioned through perception which is the activity of thinking, naming, etc. The sotapanna has not ended this, nor can he except through deep inspection of perception and its construction. Some call this the real vipassana. Whatever it is, it cannot be a product of thought as thought is what the 'I' making is all about. No view can be the 'right' view. The Buddha said there is one objection to all views, that it is still a view. This is paradox because thought thinks it can 'uncondition' itself. Even in Mahayana, the nature of mind is always thought of as spotless and practitioners are told to abide in that, but it is only a temporary solution to a continuing process of dissatisfaction. If the 'I' maker is always viewing something apart from itself, nothing has touched its core. The sotapanna is not free of suffering. All the tools of development are conditioned. They are fine to be used to become a better person, kinder, doing no harm, etc., but release from this ignorance seems to be another matter. I am not a believer in cultivation leading to nibbana unless you think nibbana is another state like a jhana. I see this in a different way, a way that abandons all attempts to become anything, aligned with dispassion. The path is not a path in a linear fashion. This is what the mind makes of things. It wants to control and succeed. It will do anything to survive. It is built into our cells. Volition cannot touch this.

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:17 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:31 am
Reference? LInk?
It's the stock description of the attainment of stream-entry, found in dozens of suttas. The one I quoted is the MN's Brahmayu Sutta. Sutta Central links to Sister Uppalavaṇṇā's translation of it, which is probably rubbish. Here's the Ñāṇamoli/Bodhi one:

https://tinyurl.com/ydejdl3k

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:24 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:06 pm
Bhante, no offense, but I remain unconvinced of your explanation.
Okay.

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:32 pm

paul wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:07 am
“Of the perversions (vipallasa), the following are eliminated by the first path knowledge (sotapatti): the perversions of perception, consciousness and views, that the impermanent is permanent and what is not a self is a self; further, the perversion of views that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. By the third path- knowledge (anagamita) are eliminated: the perversions of perception and consciousness that the impure is pure. By the fourth path-knowledge (arahatta) are eliminated the perversions of perception and consciousness that the painful is pleasant” (Vism. XXII,68).—-Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka.

This shows how perceptions and states of mind are based on views, but even when the views have been eliminated the corresponding perceptions and states of mind still take time to eradicate.
I fully agree that the perversions of perception are at the root of all 'problems'. My friend U.G. spoke about what happened to him in extensive interviews and video recordings. There came a moment when he saw clearly how he was fooling himself. The deception, he called it. His whole existence as U.G. disappeared. It was something unexpected and completely not what he had thought it would be. It left him functioning without this perversion of perception. It was a kind of death and regeneration. There were all kinds of unusual things that happened but none of that mattered to him. He was 'free', living in what he called 'The Natural State'. I have never run across another like him. His honesty was a challenge to anyone who ever met him. He was unfettered in every way I could see. He described his 'calamity' as to something like a vacuum cleaner sucking everything he knew out of him, cleansing him of all knowledge, personal and cultural, right down to his cells. U.G. never reappeared. It took awhile to readjust to this. His recognition of things came back slowly. Sometimes he would point and ask what that was. When told, he would say, oh yes. There was nothing personal in all this. It was all activities of the body that he talked about, not about you and me and getting somewhere. There was nowhere for him. No time nor space, yet he knew if he needed to do something or see someone. He was completely ordinary, yet completely impersonal, never cold, often humorous, and strangely silent at times. I could go on but this is not my intention to do this here. My intention of mentioning him is to show that this awakening is possible and that it may not be what you are expecting. We are full of images of what the Buddha was and what he represented. The problem with most of us is that we've never met anyone who came into that state and we have only words to go by. U.G. insisted that the words are to be let go of.

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by binocular » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:27 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:30 am
A smell that one perceives as foul normally indicates that there's something wrong, and that it may be dangerous for one's health.
No smell is something mentally conditioned.
Young children thrive on bad order.
Some people hate fish others hate meat etc.
I think it's more complex than that.

For example, my father likes to eat snacks late at night. Sometimes, he eats onions or garlic, leaving the peels and the cuttings on the kitchen counter, so that in the morning, the house smells horribly. I feel aversion in that situation; but I can tell that it is not aversion to the stale smell of onions and garlic, but because I perceive my father's leaving the onions and the garlic on the counter as a mark of his insensitivity and indifference toward other family members. And it is this perceived insensitivity and indifference on my father's part that I have aversion to.

I think that in many cases, we are aversive to particular smells because of what they indicate for us. So the actual issue isn't the aversion toward a particular smell, but toward what it indicates for us, in each specific instance.

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by binocular » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:31 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:30 am
Young children thrive on bad order.
Actually, one can assess the state of one's health from the smell of one's bodily secretions. You can tell there's something wrong when your pee and poo don't have the right kind of pee and poo smell.
(In so-called civilized cultures, people seem to have suppressed this ability.)

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:34 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:32 pm
My friend U.G. spoke about what happened to him in extensive interviews and video recordings. There came a moment when he saw clearly how he was fooling himself. The deception, he called it. His whole existence as U.G. disappeared. It was something unexpected and completely not what he had thought it would be. It left him functioning without this perversion of perception. It was a kind of death and regeneration. There were all kinds of unusual things that happened but none of that mattered to him. He was 'free', living in what he called 'The Natural State'. I have never run across another like him. His honesty was a challenge to anyone who ever met him. He was unfettered in every way I could see. He described his 'calamity' as to something like a vacuum cleaner sucking everything he knew out of him, cleansing him of all knowledge, personal and cultural, right down to his cells. U.G. never reappeared. It took awhile to readjust to this. His recognition of things came back slowly. Sometimes he would point and ask what that was. When told, he would say, oh yes. There was nothing personal in all this. It was all activities of the body that he talked about, not about you and me and getting somewhere. There was nowhere for him. No time nor space, yet he knew if he needed to do something or see someone. He was completely ordinary, yet completely impersonal, never cold, often humorous, and strangely silent at times. I could go on but this is not my intention to do this here. My intention of mentioning him is to show that this awakening is possible and that it may not be what you are expecting. We are full of images of what the Buddha was and what he represented. The problem with most of us is that we've never met anyone who came into that state and we have only words to go by. U.G. insisted that the words are to be let go of.
Are these interviews and videos in the public domain? This sounds like a very interesting individual who we might learn from.

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by paul » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:19 pm

View comes first, not perception, that's why right view is the first link of the path. Regarding the OP, the important part of the Analayo quote is

“Sustained contemplation of impermanence leads to a shift in one’s normal way of experiencing reality”,

so at every opportunity the awareness of impermanence should be consolidated, that is when a sense impression, a smell or a sight of evidence of dissolution is encountered it should be identified as “decay of the human body”. It is only in this way that right view is established, leading to a shift in perception in line with reality. As well as fortuitous encounters, arranged viewings of autopsies or dead bodies, visits to hospitals or even doctor’s waiting rooms should be made. Without systematic development of this practice, the mind will continue to be carried along by the current of delusion, the 'normal' way. Right view goes against the current and so requires intentional effort. Where conventional view ceases, that's where the tangle is cut.
Last edited by paul on Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to exercise sense restraint in instances where aversion might arise?

Post by SarathW » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:46 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:27 pm
SarathW wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:30 am
A smell that one perceives as foul normally indicates that there's something wrong, and that it may be dangerous for one's health.
No smell is something mentally conditioned.
Young children thrive on bad order.
Some people hate fish others hate meat etc.
I think it's more complex than that.

For example, my father likes to eat snacks late at night. Sometimes, he eats onions or garlic, leaving the peels and the cuttings on the kitchen counter, so that in the morning, the house smells horribly. I feel aversion in that situation; but I can tell that it is not aversion to the stale smell of onions and garlic, but because I perceive my father's leaving the onions and the garlic on the counter as a mark of his insensitivity and indifference toward other family members. And it is this perceived insensitivity and indifference on my father's part that I have aversion to.

I think that in many cases, we are aversive to particular smells because of what they indicate for us. So the actual issue isn't the aversion toward a particular smell, but toward what it indicates for us, in each specific instance.
What if your father put them in the garbage bin and the smell coming from it?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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