How to become a person with hope/expectation?

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binocular
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How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:02 pm

Greetings.


We read:
“Bhikkhus, there are these three kinds of persons found existing in the world. What three? The one without expectation, the one full of expectation, and the one who has overcome expectation.
/.../
https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.13
A German translation of a similar passage uses "hope":
Welcher Mensch gilt als „hoffnungslos“?
Welcher Mensch gilt als „hoffnungsvoll“?
Welcher Mensch gilt als „hoffnungsgestillt“?
/.../
https://suttacentral.net/de/pp2.3
How does one become a person full of expectation/hope?

The person without hope is described as:
"Here, some person is immoral, of bad character, of impure and suspect behavior, secretive in his actions, not an ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved."
It could be that in order for such a person to become full of expectation, the person would need to become virtuous, of good character. But I think that in order to become virtuous, of good character, one would already need to be full of expectation, so that pursuing improvement would seem worth it.

So how does one become a person full of expectation/hope?


Thank you for your replies.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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L.N.
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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:26 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:02 pm
How does one become a person full of expectation/hope?
My sense is that it comes from first really hearing and listening to the Dhamma with some degree of understanding. From the sutta:
“And what, bhikkhus, is the person without expectation? Here, some person is immoral, of bad character, of impure and suspect behavior, secretive in his actions, not an ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. He hears: ‘Such and such a bhikkhu, with the destruction of the taints, has realized for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life, the taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, and having entered upon it, he dwells in it.’ It does not occur to him: ‘When will I, too, with the destruction of the taints, realize for myself with direct knowledge, in this very life, the taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, and having entered upon it, dwell in it?’ This is called the person without expectation.
Notice the slight change in wording regarding one with expectations:
“And what is the person full of expectation? Here, a bhikkhu is virtuous, of good character. He hears: ‘Such and such a bhikkhu, with the destruction of the taints, has realized for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life, the taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, and having entered upon it, he dwells in it.’ It occurs to him: ‘When will I, too, with the destruction of the taints, realize for myself with direct knowledge, in this very life, the taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, and having entered upon it, dwell in it?’ This is called the person full of expectation.
Why would the thought occur to one but not the other? I think the reason is that one with expectations had actually heard and understood the Dhamma to some degree, whereas one without expectations has not yet heard and understood the Dhamma to a degree sufficient to believe that he or she may, in this very life, be liberated.

Ultimately, a further understanding leads back again to "it does not occur to him."
“And what is the person who has overcome expectation? Here, a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed. He hears: ‘Such and such a bhikkhu, with the destruction of the taints, has realized for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life, the taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, and having entered upon it, he dwells in it.’ It does not occur to him: ‘When will I, too, with the destruction of the taints, realize for myself with direct knowledge, in this very life, the taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, and having entered upon it, dwell in it?’ For what reason? Because his past expectation of liberation subsided when he was liberated. This is called the person who has overcome expectation.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:07 pm

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:26 pm
binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:02 pm
How does one become a person full of expectation/hope?
My sense is that it comes from first really hearing and listening to the Dhamma with some degree of understanding.
/.../
Why would the thought occur to one but not the other? I think the reason is that one with expectations had actually heard and understood the Dhamma to some degree, whereas one without expectations has not yet heard and understood the Dhamma to a degree sufficient to believe that he or she may, in this very life, be liberated.
Contrast this with a passage on the importance of conceit:
"'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then he eventually abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by DNS » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:14 pm

I like the term expectations as seen from some of my articles here:
http://the4nobletruths.com/

But I don't recall that term when reading the suttas. I don't have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation in front of me right now, but could check later. It could be one of Ven. Sujato's translations which differ from other translators?

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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:40 pm

For saṃvega to be an effective drive to practice, it must be accompanied by another emotion called pasada, a "clarity and serene confidence." Pasada is what keeps saṃvega from turning into nihilistic despair by providing a sense of confidence that there is a way out, namely nibbana.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83vega


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binocular
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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:39 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:14 pm
But I don't recall that term when reading the suttas. I don't have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation in front of me right now, but could check later. It could be one of Ven. Sujato's translations which differ from other translators?
The one in the OP is Bhikkhu Bodhi's.
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binocular
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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:11 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:40 pm
For saṃvega to be an effective drive to practice, it must be accompanied by another emotion called pasada, a "clarity and serene confidence." Pasada is what keeps saṃvega from turning into nihilistic despair by providing a sense of confidence that there is a way out, namely nibbana.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83vega
I'm not sure how this relates to the topic ...?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:29 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:11 pm
Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:40 pm
For saṃvega to be an effective drive to practice, it must be accompanied by another emotion called pasada, a "clarity and serene confidence." Pasada is what keeps saṃvega from turning into nihilistic despair by providing a sense of confidence that there is a way out, namely nibbana.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83vega
I'm not sure how this relates to the topic ...?
hope and expectation is that there is a way for nibanna

maybe I did not understand the topic

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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:26 pm

Apologies for going off on a slight tangent here, but I notice that the lay person who is full of expectation (i.e. for the worldly gain of anointing) is characterised thus:
“And what is the person full of expectation? Here, the eldest son of a head-anointed khattiya king, one due to be anointed but not yet anointed, has attained the unshaken.
Has anyone any ideas as to why this person is said to have attained the unshaken? This is normally a reference to imperturbability of mind, or nibbana. Not even the counterpart bhikkhu full of expectation has such attainment. Is it just that he has reached certainty as to the fact that he is going to be anointed? It seems odd.

[Please feel free to move this if it gets in the way of binocular's question.]

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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by paul » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:31 pm

The Buddhist conception of faith is not of something that continues indefinitely, faith is the seed and the practitioner is expected to investigate and test the object of faith and develop direct knowledge, and it is on that that confidence is built:

“The Blessed One taught me the Dhamma with its higher and higher levels, with its more and more sublime levels, with its dark and bright counterparts. As the Blessed One taught the Dhamma to me in this way, through direct knowledge of a certain teaching here in that Dhamma, I came to a conclusion about the teachings. I placed confidence in the Teacher thus: ”The Blessed One is fully enlightened, the Dhamma is well proclaimed by the Blessed One, the Sangha is practising the good way.”—-MN 47

The second factor of enlightenment, investigation, means applying dhamma principles to daily life and seeing their substance. On that understanding, a further act of faith is necessary to make the next step, just as physical walking involves continuing acts of faith, effort and accomplishment.

binocular
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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:55 pm

paul wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:31 pm
The Buddhist conception of faith is not of something that continues indefinitely, faith is the seed and the practitioner is expected to investigate and test the object of faith and develop direct knowledge, and it is on that that confidence is built:/.../
Like I've said many times in the forums already: It's not clear that this Buddhist investigation and testing is comparable to what we, as secular, less or more scientifically minded Westerners, understand investigation and testing to be.
I can't clarify my concerns further yet, I just have a strong sense that there is an important difference here.
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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:54 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:07 pm
Contrast this with a passage on the importance of conceit:
"'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then he eventually abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
That's very interesting, thank you. The same sutta describes reliance on food and at the eventual abandoning of reliance on food. At the end, the nun whom Ananda addresses in the sutta confesses to some transgression. What is your understanding of the importance of conceit and its relationship with developing hope/expectation? It seems these are all presented as a kind of stepping stone along the path.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by Mkoll » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:51 am

Hope and inspiration are strongly linked. What inspires can give hope. I find the Triple Gem inspiring and it gives me hope.

I hope that helps. 8-)
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by JohnK » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:44 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:55 pm
...It's not clear that this Buddhist investigation and testing is comparable to what we, as secular, less or more scientifically minded Westerners, understand investigation and testing to be.
I can't clarify my concerns further yet, I just have a strong sense that there is an important difference here.
Interesting question. Here's a couple thoughts.
Both are attempts to learn. Scientifically-minded investigation is aimed at making generalizable claims about how the world works. Dhammic investigation seems more practical, like learning a craft. For example, I see that when I did x, my concentration improved; let's see what happens if I try x again maybe slightly differently. (From a scientific perspective, a study of 1 person makes it impossible to isolate a single cause (the "variables are confounded" -- no "control group"). Even Dhammic investigation runs into the difficulty of isolating causes, as the workings of kamma are so complex, however, one can nevertheless investigate in the more practical sense of learning a craft, learning the practicalities of walking the path (vs. making claims about the path). Interesting to consider.
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

binocular
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Re: How to become a person with hope/expectation?

Post by binocular » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:59 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:29 pm
hope and expectation is that there is a way for nibanna
I see.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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