Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

[chownah]

Many people's right to even exist is questioned.

Not so many I think.
.....and even if there were "many" people whose rights to exist were questioned does it make it any less of a dismemberment for any person subject to this abuse?
chownah

[Justsit]

...This matter seems to be presented as if the plight of transfolks is something special. But it's not.

I never claimed "special" status - in fact, the exact opposite.

You and I have gone around about this before, I will not rehash old discussions.

[L.N.]

Does any categorical definition really 'exist'? It is merely imposed on a reality of process. People have different conditions, based on past and present conditions. Is a dog with 3 legs 'really' a dog? What attributes must a thing have to be defined as that thing? Those attributes will change - does that mean the thing is no longer what it was? The proverbial ship, whose parts are entirely replaced over the course of it's journey - is it the same ship that exists?

Or perhaps attempting to discuss things in these terms of 'exist' or 'not exist' is exactly what the Buddha warned against.

Don't forget the two ways of understanding Right View, including gender-specific references:

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[L.N.]

As Justsit points out so well, trans people (and probably all people) just want to be treated as regular human beings, presumably with dignity and respect.

Well, what is a "regular human being"?

Every human being in existence.

[binocular]

.....and even if there were "many" people whose rights to exist were questioned does it make it any less of a dismemberment for any person subject to this abuse?

Of course not. But at least some such people seem to make no drama of it.

[chownah]

.....and even if there were "many" people whose rights to exist were questioned does it make it any less of a dismemberment for any person subject to this abuse?

Of course not. But at least some such people seem to make no drama of it.

People who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it."
What a regressive idea.
chownah

[DooDoot]

People who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it." What a regressive idea.

Obviously, lots of people feel uncomfortable, just as a bald headed bhikkhu or bhikkhuni may be an object of discomfort for some. I think a good Buddhist tries to view all positions rather than engage in a left-wing victimhood ideology. For example, in the video i posted here, the person wants to transition from a male to a female but says they still lust over girls therefore they are lesbian. Many people I think would find this creepy, particularly women, where a non-fully-transitioned man who claims to be a lesbian wants to act like a woman, including using female public facilities, etc. In life, despite the feminist rhetoric, there are natural gender roles & tendencies, including virtuous ones. There are sexual dynamics between the sexes. For example, merely emotionally, women do often act in a way to receive attention, affirmation & hugs from men. I have a gay friend who is very effeminate & engages in lots of hugs with both (willing) men & women. I don't mind being the recipient in his huggy behaviour when i see him but most men would not. When there is a phobia, such as Transphobia, i think it is important to examine the causes & conditions of this, in a Buddhist manner, rather than think Buddhism is the same as left-wing-cultural-marxist-victimhood ideology. Victimhood ideology is like declaring: "Nazis or Neo-Cons who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it." What a regressive idea." Is short, I think declaring persecution victimhood without examining causes & conditions is not Buddhist but another ideology. I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another.

Donald Trump's government has revoked guidance to US public schools that allowed transgender students to use toilets matching their gender identity.

The guidance, issued by his predecessor Barack Obama, had been hailed by as a victory for transgender rights.

But critics said it threatened other students' privacy and safety, and should be decided at state level.

Mr Obama's directive had sparked a backlash across the country, with legal challenges from 13 states.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39047883

[Justsit]

...When there is a phobia, such as Transphobia, i think it is important to examine the causes & conditions of this, in a Buddhist manner, rather than think Buddhism is the same as left-wing-cultural-marxist-victimhood ideology. Victimhood ideology is like declaring: "Nazis or Neo-Cons who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it." What a regressive idea." Is short, I think declaring persecution victimhood without examining causes & conditions is not Buddhist but another ideology. I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another...

Yes, I agree - a lot, if not most, transphobia is based on confusion and discomfort. There is really no reason to relate to a trans person any differently than you would with any other person of that gender. US studies show many people here have never met a live trans person - and yet have strong views on the subject based on misunderstanding and misinformation. How many people know, off the top of their head (NOT consulting google or other references first!), the difference between a transgender person, a transvestite, a transexual, a cross-dresser, a drag queen, and a female impersonator? Not many, I'd wager. Indeed, it seem as though some so-called "News" websites don't know the difference either - and yet continue to broker fear and confusion.

As long as a trans person acts in a wholesome way, I see no reason they can't be "Buddhist."

[binocular]

I feel unease about all "minorities", and it's because of how they often get their way, even at the expense of the rights of others.

When I was going to school, there was just one black girl in the whole county. And this black girl was very mean -- she acted superior and as if the rules that other students had to abide by didn't apply to her. For example, she'd cut in front of others in the waiting line in the cafeteria. And if anyone criticized her, told her to wait in line, or, heaven forbid, reported her, the teachers interpreted this as "racial intolerance" on our part.
She could get away with anything, she could always play the race card and win.

I find the same is happening when it comes to commanding tolerance for transfolks. Our teachers were teaching us white guilt, and the advocates of trans folks are teaching us cis guilt.

...When there is a phobia, such as Transphobia, i think it is important to examine the causes & conditions of this, in a Buddhist manner, rather than think Buddhism is the same as left-wing-cultural-marxist-victimhood ideology. Victimhood ideology is like declaring: "Nazis or Neo-Cons who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it." What a regressive idea." Is short, I think declaring persecution victimhood without examining causes & conditions is not Buddhist but another ideology. I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another...

Yes, I agree - a lot, if not most, transphobia is based on confusion and discomfort.

How about trans folks trying to understand cis folks? Why should that be off limits? Why should only cis folks try to understand the trans folks, but the trans folks shouldn't even have to try to understand cis folks?
This is the special treatment I'm talking about.

I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another...

It's accepting the one-way dynamic that is the challenge. And people are right to refuse to accept it.

[lyndon taylor]

I feel unease about all "minorities", and it's because of how they often get their way, even at the expense of the rights of others.

When I was going to school, there was just one black girl in the whole county. And this black girl was very mean -- she acted superior and as if the rules that other students had to abide by didn't apply to her. For example, she'd cut in front of others in the waiting line in the cafeteria. And if anyone criticized her, told her to wait in line, or, heaven forbid, reported her, the teachers interpreted this as "racial intolerance" on our part.
She could get away with anything, she could always play the race card and win.

I find the same is happening when it comes to commanding tolerance for transfolks. Our teachers were teaching us white guilt, and the advocates of trans folks are teaching us cis guilt.

...When there is a phobia, such as Transphobia, i think it is important to examine the causes & conditions of this, in a Buddhist manner, rather than think Buddhism is the same as left-wing-cultural-marxist-victimhood ideology. Victimhood ideology is like declaring: "Nazis or Neo-Cons who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it." What a regressive idea." Is short, I think declaring persecution victimhood without examining causes & conditions is not Buddhist but another ideology. I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another...

Yes, I agree - a lot, if not most, transphobia is based on confusion and discomfort.

How about trans folks trying to understand cis folks? Why should that be off limits? Why should only cis folks try to understand the trans folks, but the trans folks shouldn't even have to try to understand cis folks?
This is the special treatment I'm talking about.

I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another...

It's accepting the one-way dynamic that is the challenge. And people are right to refuse to accept it.

Well I feel unease at white and straight folk as they always seem to get their way!!

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

I do wonder what happened to "live and let live"...

Metta,
Paul.

[dharmacorps]

Greetings,

I do wonder what happened to "live and let live"...

Metta,
Paul.

Yeah, that seems to have gone out the window in the last few years. People are turning on each other more it seems to me. Rigidly held views and self-reification. It is good to have a healthy sense of self on the Buddhist path so that you can let go of it. Otherwise the rest is squabbling over nonsense.

[chownah]

I feel unease about all "minorities", and it's because of how they often get their way, even at the expense of the rights of others.

Well I feel unease at white and straight folk as they always seem to get their way!!

Better than good, its a great post.
chownah

[binocular]

.....and even if there were "many" people whose rights to exist were questioned does it make it any less of a dismemberment for any person subject to this abuse?

Of course not. But at least some such people seem to make no drama of it.

People who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it."
What a regressive idea.

If someone believes they were wronged, and they believe they are entitled to redress or better treatment, such a person will not plead, will not ask for mercy from their abuser, will not seek understanding from their abuser, and will in no way let their abuser define the extent of the abuse or their identity.

But if we look at various rights movements, the disenfranchised and subject to abuse not rarely do just the above. They seem like they're not sure they're actually entitled to what they're asking for. And if even they don't believe in such entitlement, why should others?

People sometimes try to capitalize on their victim status, and so try to force or manipulate others in giving them rights, privileges, favors, or compassion. But people resent to be forced or manipulated, so everything that they grant under manipulation, they will sooner or later try to revoke.

[binocular]

I do wonder what happened to "live and let live"...

Some people forget that living requires efforting and strife.