Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:03 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:40 am

Many people's right to even exist is questioned.
Not so many I think.
.....and even if there were "many" people whose rights to exist were questioned does it make it any less of a dismemberment for any person subject to this abuse?
chownah

Justsit
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by Justsit » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:16 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:40 am
...This matter seems to be presented as if the plight of transfolks is something special. But it's not.
I never claimed "special" status - in fact, the exact opposite.

You and I have gone around about this before, I will not rehash old discussions.

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L.N.
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:21 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:38 am
Does any categorical definition really 'exist'? It is merely imposed on a reality of process. People have different conditions, based on past and present conditions. Is a dog with 3 legs 'really' a dog? What attributes must a thing have to be defined as that thing? Those attributes will change - does that mean the thing is no longer what it was? The proverbial ship, whose parts are entirely replaced over the course of it's journey - is it the same ship that exists?

Or perhaps attempting to discuss things in these terms of 'exist' or 'not exist' is exactly what the Buddha warned against.
Don't forget the two ways of understanding Right View, including gender-specific references:
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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L.N.
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:23 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:40 am
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:59 am
As Justsit points out so well, trans people (and probably all people) just want to be treated as regular human beings, presumably with dignity and respect.
Well, what is a "regular human being"?
Every human being in existence.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by binocular » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:07 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:03 pm
.....and even if there were "many" people whose rights to exist were questioned does it make it any less of a dismemberment for any person subject to this abuse?
Of course not. But at least some such people seem to make no drama of it.

chownah
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:23 am

binocular wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:07 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:03 pm
.....and even if there were "many" people whose rights to exist were questioned does it make it any less of a dismemberment for any person subject to this abuse?
Of course not. But at least some such people seem to make no drama of it.
People who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it."
What a regressive idea.
chownah

DooDoot
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:45 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:23 am
People who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it." What a regressive idea.
Obviously, lots of people feel uncomfortable, just as a bald headed bhikkhu or bhikkhuni may be an object of discomfort for some. I think a good Buddhist tries to view all positions rather than engage in a left-wing victimhood ideology. For example, in the video i posted here, the person wants to transition from a male to a female but says they still lust over girls therefore they are lesbian. Many people I think would find this creepy, particularly women, where a non-fully-transitioned man who claims to be a lesbian wants to act like a woman, including using female public facilities, etc. In life, despite the feminist rhetoric, there are natural gender roles & tendencies, including virtuous ones. There are sexual dynamics between the sexes. For example, merely emotionally, women do often act in a way to receive attention, affirmation & hugs from men. I have a gay friend who is very effeminate & engages in lots of hugs with both (willing) men & women. I don't mind being the recipient in his huggy behaviour when i see him but most men would not. When there is a phobia, such as Transphobia, i think it is important to examine the causes & conditions of this, in a Buddhist manner, rather than think Buddhism is the same as left-wing-cultural-marxist-victimhood ideology. Victimhood ideology is like declaring: "Nazis or Neo-Cons who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it." What a regressive idea." Is short, I think declaring persecution victimhood without examining causes & conditions is not Buddhist but another ideology. I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another.
Donald Trump's government has revoked guidance to US public schools that allowed transgender students to use toilets matching their gender identity.

The guidance, issued by his predecessor Barack Obama, had been hailed by as a victory for transgender rights.

But critics said it threatened other students' privacy and safety, and should be decided at state level.

Mr Obama's directive had sparked a backlash across the country, with legal challenges from 13 states.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39047883

Justsit
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by Justsit » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:57 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:45 pm
...When there is a phobia, such as Transphobia, i think it is important to examine the causes & conditions of this, in a Buddhist manner, rather than think Buddhism is the same as left-wing-cultural-marxist-victimhood ideology. Victimhood ideology is like declaring: "Nazis or Neo-Cons who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it." What a regressive idea." Is short, I think declaring persecution victimhood without examining causes & conditions is not Buddhist but another ideology. I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another...
Yes, I agree - a lot, if not most, transphobia is based on confusion and discomfort. There is really no reason to relate to a trans person any differently than you would with any other person of that gender. US studies show many people here have never met a live trans person - and yet have strong views on the subject based on misunderstanding and misinformation. How many people know, off the top of their head (NOT consulting google or other references first!), the difference between a transgender person, a transvestite, a transexual, a cross-dresser, a drag queen, and a female impersonator? Not many, I'd wager. Indeed, it seem as though some so-called "News" websites don't know the difference either - and yet continue to broker fear and confusion.

As long as a trans person acts in a wholesome way, I see no reason they can't be "Buddhist."

binocular
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by binocular » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:38 am

I feel unease about all "minorities", and it's because of how they often get their way, even at the expense of the rights of others.

When I was going to school, there was just one black girl in the whole county. And this black girl was very mean -- she acted superior and as if the rules that other students had to abide by didn't apply to her. For example, she'd cut in front of others in the waiting line in the cafeteria. And if anyone criticized her, told her to wait in line, or, heaven forbid, reported her, the teachers interpreted this as "racial intolerance" on our part.
She could get away with anything, she could always play the race card and win.

I find the same is happening when it comes to commanding tolerance for transfolks. Our teachers were teaching us white guilt, and the advocates of trans folks are teaching us cis guilt.

Justsit wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:57 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:45 pm
...When there is a phobia, such as Transphobia, i think it is important to examine the causes & conditions of this, in a Buddhist manner, rather than think Buddhism is the same as left-wing-cultural-marxist-victimhood ideology. Victimhood ideology is like declaring: "Nazis or Neo-Cons who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it." What a regressive idea." Is short, I think declaring persecution victimhood without examining causes & conditions is not Buddhist but another ideology. I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another...
Yes, I agree - a lot, if not most, transphobia is based on confusion and discomfort.
How about trans folks trying to understand cis folks? Why should that be off limits? Why should only cis folks try to understand the trans folks, but the trans folks shouldn't even have to try to understand cis folks?
This is the special treatment I'm talking about.
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:45 pm
I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another...
It's accepting the one-way dynamic that is the challenge. And people are right to refuse to accept it.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:56 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:38 am
I feel unease about all "minorities", and it's because of how they often get their way, even at the expense of the rights of others.

When I was going to school, there was just one black girl in the whole county. And this black girl was very mean -- she acted superior and as if the rules that other students had to abide by didn't apply to her. For example, she'd cut in front of others in the waiting line in the cafeteria. And if anyone criticized her, told her to wait in line, or, heaven forbid, reported her, the teachers interpreted this as "racial intolerance" on our part.
She could get away with anything, she could always play the race card and win.

I find the same is happening when it comes to commanding tolerance for transfolks. Our teachers were teaching us white guilt, and the advocates of trans folks are teaching us cis guilt.

Justsit wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:57 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:45 pm
...When there is a phobia, such as Transphobia, i think it is important to examine the causes & conditions of this, in a Buddhist manner, rather than think Buddhism is the same as left-wing-cultural-marxist-victimhood ideology. Victimhood ideology is like declaring: "Nazis or Neo-Cons who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it." What a regressive idea." Is short, I think declaring persecution victimhood without examining causes & conditions is not Buddhist but another ideology. I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another...
Yes, I agree - a lot, if not most, transphobia is based on confusion and discomfort.
How about trans folks trying to understand cis folks? Why should that be off limits? Why should only cis folks try to understand the trans folks, but the trans folks shouldn't even have to try to understand cis folks?
This is the special treatment I'm talking about.
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:45 pm
I think it must be acknowledged that transgender is 'challenge' for many people because it makes them feel inwardly 'confused' & 'uncomfortable' about how to emotionally relate to another...
It's accepting the one-way dynamic that is the challenge. And people are right to refuse to accept it.
Well I feel unease at white and straight folk as they always seem to get their way!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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retrofuturist
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:56 pm

Greetings,

I do wonder what happened to "live and let live"...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

dharmacorps
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:51 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:56 pm
Greetings,

I do wonder what happened to "live and let live"...

Metta,
Paul. :)
Yeah, that seems to have gone out the window in the last few years. People are turning on each other more it seems to me. Rigidly held views and self-reification. It is good to have a healthy sense of self on the Buddhist path so that you can let go of it. Otherwise the rest is squabbling over nonsense.

chownah
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:04 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:56 pm
binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:38 am
I feel unease about all "minorities", and it's because of how they often get their way, even at the expense of the rights of others.
Well I feel unease at white and straight folk as they always seem to get their way!!
:goodpost:
Better than good, its a great post.
chownah

binocular
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by binocular » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:27 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:23 am
binocular wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:07 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:03 pm
.....and even if there were "many" people whose rights to exist were questioned does it make it any less of a dismemberment for any person subject to this abuse?
Of course not. But at least some such people seem to make no drama of it.
People who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it."
What a regressive idea.
If someone believes they were wronged, and they believe they are entitled to redress or better treatment, such a person will not plead, will not ask for mercy from their abuser, will not seek understanding from their abuser, and will in no way let their abuser define the extent of the abuse or their identity.

But if we look at various rights movements, the disenfranchised and subject to abuse not rarely do just the above. They seem like they're not sure they're actually entitled to what they're asking for. And if even they don't believe in such entitlement, why should others?

People sometimes try to capitalize on their victim status, and so try to force or manipulate others in giving them rights, privileges, favors, or compassion. But people resent to be forced or manipulated, so everything that they grant under manipulation, they will sooner or later try to revoke.

binocular
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by binocular » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:32 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:56 pm
I do wonder what happened to "live and let live"...
Some people forget that living requires efforting and strife.

Justsit
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by Justsit » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:58 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:27 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:23 am
binocular wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:07 pm
Of course not. But at least some such people seem to make no drama of it.
People who are being disenfranchised and subject to abuse should "make no drama of it."
What a regressive idea.
If someone believes they were wronged, and they believe they are entitled to redress or better treatment, such a person will not plead, will not ask for mercy from their abuser, will not seek understanding from their abuser, and will in no way let their abuser define the extent of the abuse or their identity.

But if we look at various rights movements, the disenfranchised and subject to abuse not rarely do just the above. They seem like they're not sure they're actually entitled to what they're asking for. And if even they don't believe in such entitlement, why should others?

People sometimes try to capitalize on their victim status, and so try to force or manipulate others in giving them rights, privileges, favors, or compassion. But people resent to be forced or manipulated, so everything that they grant under manipulation, they will sooner or later try to revoke.
Please explain how your statements relate to transgender people specifically.

chownah
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by chownah » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:48 am

binocular wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:27 pm

But if we look at various rights movements, the disenfranchised and subject to abuse not rarely do just the above. They seem like they're not sure they're actually entitled to what they're asking for. And if even they don't believe in such entitlement, why should others?
What a regressive idea! This sounds like something that german man with the funny moustache would have said about the jews. REally, it does.
chownah

binocular
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by binocular » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:00 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:48 am
What a regressive idea! This sounds like something that german man with the funny moustache would have said about the jews. REally, it does.
Yeah, it's totally regressive to know what you want and to stand for it.
:rolleye:

binocular
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by binocular » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:18 pm

Justsit wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:58 pm
Please explain how your statements relate to transgender people specifically.
What's there to explain? If trans people believe they are equal to others, then why don't they behave equally to others, or as equals to others?

If trans people would behave in a manner suggesting that transitioning is something completely natural and normal, others would have no reason to question them or discriminate against them. Instead of the Biblical story being about Adam and Eve, it would be about Adam, the man, Eve, the woman, and Sasha, the transgender.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:39 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:27 pm
If someone believes they were wronged, and they believe they are entitled to redress or better treatment, such a person will not plead, will not ask for mercy from their abuser, will not seek understanding from their abuser, and will in no way let their abuser define the extent of the abuse or their identity.
Yesterday, I ordered some food online. The food I received was not the food I ordered. I asked for a refund, I asked for mercy from my abuser however hyperbolic that language is in this instance, since I had been financially wronged, and I received it.

In asking for that refund, I explained why I was asking for a refund, seeking understanding from my abuser. Ultimately, the abuser has the power here, since they can simply decide not to refund me and I'm hardly going to take them to court over less than $10.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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