Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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L.N.
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Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by L.N. »



Exploring this issue in the context of the Dhamma, I came across the following:
Buddhist Bigots, Buddhism and Trans Folk

Among the comments therein:
Let’s be clear, even the Buddhist monastic writings deal directly with transition:

‘Now at one time, the sign of a woman appeared to a monk. The other monks told this matter to the Buddha. He said: “Monks, I allow the teacher to meet with nuns during the rains, as for the higher ordination, so as in the presence of the nuns away from those offences which they have in common with monks; but in those offences of monks which are offences not in common with nuns, there is no offence for the nuns.’

‘Now at one time, the sign of a man appeared to a nun. The other monks told this matter to the Buddha. He said: “Monks, I allow a teacher to meet with the monks during the rains, as for the higher ordination, so as in the presence of monks to turn the monks away from those offences which they have in common with nuns; but in those offences of nuns which are offences not in common with monks, there is no offence for the monks.’
(Vinaya Pitaka III 35, page 53 )

Buddhism recognizes the reality of trans people and voices clear support for transition. However, bigots will happily turn their religion into a tool of oppression and Buddhism is not exempt from having its share of religious bigots.
I am unable to confirm the accuracy of the cited text, and I suspect it may not be accurately presented. Even so, the sentiment appears to be consistent with Dhamma teachings.

I also came across the following" Bodhi Day: A Transgender Buddhist’s Note of Gratitude

Are there actually any Sutta or textual references applicable to transgender identity?
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
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L.N.
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by L.N. »

Anyone know if the following is accurate?
The Vinaya Pitaka, the ancient Buddhist texts that define the rules for Buddhist monks and nuns, record two incidences of sex change that a monk and a nun had gone through. A group of monks and nuns bring the two incidences to the Buddha’s notice. The Buddha accepts their changed status. He allows the former male disciple who became a female to live with female disciples, and the former female disciple to live with males.

These episodes indicate the Buddha’s open-mindedness toward transsexual persons. He accepted their bodily changes even though some in his society attributed such changes to the influence of bad Karmas. Some of the sections in the Vinaya Pitaka are obviously later additions, which do not represent the Buddha’s true voice. There is every reason to believe that the Buddha accepted all kinds of people irrespective of any differences they had undergone.

The Buddha’s statement that one becomes a noble person not by birth but by one’s behavior confirms this conclusion. “Birth” means wealth, social status, and physical appearance including the gender of a particular person. Change of a certain person’s gender has no connection to the evaluation of that person. Only wholesome behavior—wholesome words, actions, and thoughts—makes a person noble.

– Bhante Rahula Basnagoda, PhD
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by DooDoot »

L.N. wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:35 amBodhi Day: A Transgender Buddhist’s Note of Gratitude
A Buddha offers metta & safety for all beings, including beings who do not practise the Buddhist path. Therefore, I doubt TransFolk receive any unique status in Buddhism; apart from not being subject to discrimination, which may occur with other religions & cultures. However, since Transfolk often need some strong metta or support, modern Buddhism often does give Transfolk a special mention in its offering of metta.
L.N. wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:35 amAre there actually any Sutta or textual references applicable to transgender identity?
The suttas seem to say obsession or fixation with identity is bondage, such as AN 7.51: https://suttacentral.net/en/an7.51. I think it is important to distinguish between the respective roles of metta (universal love) and non-identification in the Buddhist path. Metta is about how to have a relationship with the (often non-Buddhist) world where as non-identification is how to be free from suffering. Just because a Buddha has metta for Transfolk does not necessarily mean a Buddha encourages the cultivation of identification. While offering Transfolk metta may help Transfolk receive external love & support, this does not negate the sufferings that can arise internally from fixations of identity.
L.N. wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:08 pmThe Buddha’s statement that one becomes a noble person not by birth but by one’s behavior confirms this conclusion. “Birth” means wealth, social status, and physical appearance including the gender of a particular person. Change of a certain person’s gender has no connection to the evaluation of that person. Only wholesome behavior—wholesome words, actions, and thoughts—makes a person noble.
The above statement seems to confirm TransFolk do not receive any unique status in Buddhism. Instead, a TransFolkperson is only "Noble" from their behaviour. For example, while a Buddha has metta for a TransFolkperson working as a sex worker in the sex industry, a Buddha would not necessarily endorse that behaviour as Buddhist Right Livelihood or Noble.

Buddhism is a path for the prevention & ending of suffering, therefore I think it is not concerned with identity. I think TransFolk are openly welcome to join & practise Buddhism however this does not mean Buddhism supports every behaviour a TransFolk might perform.
L.N. wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:08 pm Anyone know if the following is accurate?
The authors have cited Vinaya Pitaka III 35, page 53. Possibly you could ask Venerable Dhammanando or otherwise ask at Sutta Central.
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by Dhammanando »

The citation is correct.
Tena kho pana samayena aññatarassa bhikkhuno itthiliṅgaṃ pātubhūtaṃ hoti. Bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. “Anujānāmi, bhikkhave, taṃyeva upajjhaṃ tameva upasampadaṃ tāniyeva vassāni bhikkhunīhi saṅgamituṃ. Yā āpattiyo bhikkhūnaṃ bhikkhunīhi sādhāraṇā tā āpattiyo bhikkhunīnaṃ santike vuṭṭhātuṃ. Yā āpattiyo bhikkhūnaṃ bhikkhunīhi asādhāraṇā tāhi āpattīhi anāpattī” ti.

Tena kho pana samayena aññatarissā bhikkhuniyā purisaliṅgaṃ pātubhūtaṃ hoti. Bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. “Anujānāmi, bhikkhave, taṃyeva upajjhaṃ tameva upasampadaṃ tāniyeva vassāni bhikkhūhi saṅgamituṃ. Yā āpattiyo bhikkhunīnaṃ bhikkhūhi sādhāraṇā tā āpattiyo bhikkhūnaṃ santike vuṭṭhātuṃ. Yā āpattiyo bhikkhunīnaṃ bhikkhūhi asādhāraṇā tāhi āpattīhi anāpattī” ti.


Now at one time the characteristics of a woman appeared on a certain bhikkhu. They informed the Master. He said: “Bhikkhus, I allow that very discipleship, that very ordination, those years as a bhikkhu, to be transferred to the bhikkhunis. Those offences that the bhikkhus have in common with the bhikkhunis are to be dealt with in the presence of the bhikkhunis. For those offences that the bhikkhus do not have in common with the bhikkhunis, there is no offence.”

At one time the characteristics of a man appeared on a certain bhikkhuni. They informed the Master. He said: “Bhikkhus, I allow that very discipleship, that very ordination, those years as a bhikkhuni, to be transferred to the bhikkhus. Those offences that the bhikkhunis have in common with the bhikkhus are to be dealt with in the presence of the bhikkhus. For those offences that the bhikkhunis do not have in common with the bhikkhus, there is no offence.”
(Vin. iii. 35)
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings bhante,

In the days before hormone replacement therapy, what would have been the conditions or circumstances in which such an assessment would apply?

Too much soy, or other dietary and hormonal issues? Or is the Vinaya talking here of some kind of deliberate physical manipulation intended to bring one's appearance closer to that of one's gender identification?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by L.N. »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:37 pmWhile offering Transfolk metta may help Transfolk receive external love & support, this does not negate the sufferings that can arise internally from fixations of identity.

...

Buddhism is a path for the prevention & ending of suffering, therefore I think it is not concerned with identity.
I think these are very powerful and, in my opinion, correct observations. This issue of gender identity does seem to be wrapped up with identity view.

/ / /
Dhammanando wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:43 pm The citation is correct.
Thank you, Bhante.
:anjali:
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by DooDoot »

L.N. wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:04 amThank you, Bhante.
Its here: https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-bu-vb-pj1
At one time the characteristics of a woman (itthiliṅgaṃ) appeared (pātubhūtaṃ) on a monk. They informed the Master. He said: “Monks, I allow that very discipleship, that very ordination, those years as a monk, to be transferred to the nuns. The monks’ offenses that are in common with the nuns are to be dealt with in the presence of the nuns. For the monks’ offenses that are not in common with the nuns, there’s no offense.”

At one time the characteristics of a man (purisaliṅgaṃ) appeared (pātubhūtaṃ) on a nun. They informed the Master. He said: “Monks, I allow that very discipleship, that very ordination, those years as a nun, to be transferred to the monks. The nuns’ offenses that are in common with the monks are to be dealt with in the presence of the monks. For the nuns’ offenses that are not in common with the monks, there’s no offense.”
And here: https://suttacentral.net/files/Book_of_ ... ipline.pdf (book page 127; PDF page 133)
Definitions for liṅga

Concise Pali English Dictionary
liṅga
neuter
sign; mark; attribute; feature; the generative organ; the gender (in grammar).

PTS Pali English Dictionary
liṅga
neuter

1. characteristic, sign, attribute, mark feature MN.i.360; SN.v.278; Snp.601 sq. (= saṇṭhāna Snp-a.464); Vin.iv.7 (two: hīna & ukkaṭṭha); Ja.i.18; Ja.iv.114 (gihi˚), Ja.iv.130; Mil.133 (sāsana˚), Mil.162 (dve samaṇassa lingāni), Mil.405 (lingato ca nimittato ca etc.); Vism.184; Dhs-a.64 (= saṇṭhāna Tīkā: Expos. 86).

2. mark of sex, sexual characteristic, pudendum (male as well as female, as neither m. nor f.) Vin.iii.35 (purisa˚); Ja.v.197 (˚saṇṭhāna); Kp-a.110 (itthi˚); Snp-a.48 (˚sampatti), Snp-a.51 (id.), Snp-a.300 (itthi˚); Dhs-a.321 sq. (itthi˚).

3. (in grammar) mark of sex, (characteristic) ending, gender Snp-a.397. -vipallāsa change or substitution of gender Pv-a.7, Pv-a.33, Pv-a.58, Pv-a.87, Pv-a.157.

fr. liṅg; late Vedic & (pre-eminently) Class. Sk. linga

https://suttacentral.net/define/li%E1%B9%85ga
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by sgns »

My understanding is that the vinaya contains ordination rules for: men; women; and those who spend 2 weeks as a man and 2 weeks as a woman -- although I'm not sure there's a current day consensus on how to define the 3rd group. Beyond that, many of the ordination rules for bhikkhis and bhikkhunis address "proving" the biological sex of the ordinate, which also implies (at least to me) some genderbending back in the day. In the US there are some researchers within the monastic sangha currently looking further into questions, especially around vinaya legality of ordination for transgendered persons.

I take multiple issues with writing off gender non-conformity as an affliction of wrong identity view. The simplest but far from the only reason being that a small but significant portion of people are both with biological characteristics of both "male" and "female" persons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

As regards to sex workers, my memory says there is a sutta wherein the Buddha speaks highly of a courtesan, remarking on the depth of her practice. Perhaps it was Amrapali?

At IMS, Spirit Rock, and the larger connected communities, there is a growing sangha of LGBTQIA practitioners, practice groups, and retreats.
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings sgns,
sgns wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:42 am I take multiple issues with writing off gender non-conformity as an affliction of wrong identity view.
In the context of the Dhamma it's less to do with it being about a wrong "identity view", than it is about it being an "identity view" at all. Consider...
AN 7.48 wrote:"I will teach you a Dhamma discourse on bondage & lack of bondage. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"Yes, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said: "A woman attends inwardly to her feminine faculties, her feminine gestures, her feminine manners, feminine poise, feminine desires, feminine voice, feminine charms. She is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, she attends outwardly to masculine faculties, masculine gestures, masculine manners, masculine poise, masculine desires, masculine voices, masculine charms. She is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, she wants to be bonded to what is outside her, wants whatever pleasure & happiness that arise based on that bond. Delighting, caught up in her femininity, a woman goes into bondage with reference to men. This is how a woman does not transcend her femininity.

"A man attends inwardly to his masculine faculties, masculine gestures, masculine manners, masculine poise, masculine desires, masculine voice, masculine charms. He is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, he attends outwardly to feminine faculties, feminine gestures, feminine manners, feminine poise, feminine desires, feminine voices, feminine charms. He is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, he wants to be bonded to what is outside him, wants whatever pleasure & happiness that arise based on that bond. Delighting, caught up in his masculinity, a man goes into bondage with reference to women. This is how a man does not transcend his masculinity.

"And how is there lack of bondage? A woman does not attend inwardly to her feminine faculties... feminine charms. She is not excited by that, not delighted by that... does not attend outwardly to masculine faculties... masculine charms. She is not excited by that, not delighted by that... does not want to be bonded to what is outside her, does not want whatever pleasure & happiness that arise based on that bond. Not delighting, not caught up in her femininity, a woman does not go into bondage with reference to men. This is how a woman transcends her femininity.

"A man does not attend inwardly to his masculine faculties... masculine charms. He is not excited by that, not delighted by that... does not attend outwardly to feminine faculties... feminine charms. He is not excited by that, not delighted by that... does not want to be bonded to what is outside him, does not want whatever pleasure & happiness that arise based on that bond. Not delighting, not caught up in his masculinity, a man does not go into bondage with reference to women. This is how a man transcends his masculinity.

"This is how there is lack of bondage. And this is the Dhamma discourse on bondage & lack of bondage."
AN 3.33 wrote:“Therefore, Sāriputta, you should train yourselves thus: (1) ‘There will be no I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit in regard to this conscious body; (2) there will be no I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit in regard to all external objects; and (3) we will enter and dwell in that liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, through which there is no more I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit for one who enters and dwells in it.’ It is in this way, Sāriputta, that you should train yourselves.

“When, Sāriputta, a bhikkhu has no I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit in regard to this conscious body; when he has no I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit in regard to all external objects; and when he enters and dwells in that liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, through which there is no more I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit for one who enters and dwells in it, he is called a bhikkhu who has cut off craving, stripped off the fetter, and, by completely breaking through conceit, has made an end of suffering. And it was with reference to this that I said in the Pārāyana, in ‘The Questions of Udaya’:

“The abandoning of both
sensual perceptions and dejection;
the dispelling of dullness,
the warding off of remorse;

“purified equanimity and mindfulness
preceded by reflection on the Dhamma:
this, I say, is emancipation by final knowledge,
the breaking up of ignorance.”
Snp 3.12 wrote:"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees."
SN 22.56 wrote:"Therefore, surely, O monks, whatever form, past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, low or lofty, far or near, all that form must be regarded with proper wisdom, according to reality, thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'
...
"O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing thus, gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free. In his freedom from passion, he is emancipated. Being emancipated, there is the knowledge that he is emancipated. He knows: 'birth is exhausted, lived is the holy life, what had to be done is done, there is nothing more of this becoming.'"

This the Blessed One said. Pleased, the group of five monks were delighted with the exposition of the Blessed One; moreover, as this exposition was being spoken, the minds of the group of five monks were freed of defilements, without attachment.
Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by DooDoot »

sgns wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:42 amAs regards to sex workers, my memory says there is a sutta wherein the Buddha speaks highly of a courtesan, remarking on the depth of her practice. Perhaps it was Amrapali?
Sex-worker or former sex-worker? I assume a sex-worker that becomes a bhikkhuni is no longer a sex-worker but a bhikkhuni.
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:43 pm The citation is correct.
Venerable Dhammanando. Where the citation exists in the book appears unusual & certainly out of context. The entire text is about monks’ expulsion (pārājika 1) for intentional/consensual sexual intercourse & lists various incidences & permutations of sexual intercourse or sexual activity. Where as this citation appears different to every other permutation because it does not entail any sexual intercourse/activity and thus does not involve a question of expulsion under pārājika 1. Therefore, why would it appear in pārājika 1?
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by sgns »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:36 am
sgns wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:42 amAs regards to sex workers, my memory says there is a sutta wherein the Buddha speaks highly of a courtesan, remarking on the depth of her practice. Perhaps it was Amrapali?
Sex-worker or former sex-worker? I assume a sex-worker that becomes a bhikkhuni is no longer a sex-worker but a bhikkhuni.
In my memory of the sutta, the Buddha is speaking of a laywoman who is currently a courtesan.

Perhaps this is what I am remembering: "Then Ambapali the courtesan came to know: "The Blessed One, they say, has arrived at Vesali and is now staying in my Mango Grove."...the Blessed One instructed Ambapali the courtesan in the Dhamma and roused, edified, and gladdened her." The Buddha then accepted a meal offering from Ambapali and not the royal Licchavis, causing quite a stir. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaji.html

Later, Ambapali became an bhikkhuni, and an arahant. She's in the Therigatha https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Hi Paul. I would say that masculine and feminine qualities are separate from gender. But for the sake of argument, and as regards to the Canon -- if gender was considered a form of identity view, i.e. something to be transcended, why would there be separate vinaya rules for men, women, and those who spend 2 weeks as a man and 2 weeks as a woman? I would be particularly curious to hear more from someone who understands better this third category of vinaya rules.
Last edited by sgns on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by DooDoot »

sgns wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:58 am...the Blessed One instructed Ambapali the courtesan in the Dhamma and roused, edified, and gladdened her." The Buddha then accepted a meal offering from Ambapali and the royal Licchavis, causing quite a stir. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaji.html

Later, Ambapali became an bhikkhuni, and an arahant. She's in the Therigatha https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Yes. Later the courtesan ceased to be a courtesan, became a celibate bhikkhuni and then an arahant. The courtesan did not become an arahant. It was the bhikkhuni that became an arahant.
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:51 am Therefore, why would it appear in pārājika 1?
It is common for miscellaneous Vinaya rules to be inserted in places where they have only a tangential connection with the general context. I would suppose this to have been a decision based on the mnemonic consideration that even a tangential connection is better than no connection at all.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: Theravada Buddhism and Trans Folk

Post by Dhammanando »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:48 pm In the days before hormone replacement therapy, what would have been the conditions or circumstances in which such an assessment would apply?
The Vinaya Piṭaka doesn't give any details beyond what I quoted. Nor is the matter addressed anywhere else in the Tipiṭaka, afaik.
retrofuturist wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:48 pmOr is the Vinaya talking here of some kind of deliberate physical manipulation intended to bring one's appearance closer to that of one's gender identification?
Not according to the Vinaya commentary on the quoted passages, which attributes the changes to kamma and says that they occurred overnight while the bhikkhu and bhikkhuni were sleeping. There are a few other sex-change stories in the commentaries (I can't locate them now) and in every case the change is represented as an unplanned (and unwelcome) one.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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