Mind independent of body?

[kverty]

I was watching this dhamma talk by Ajahn Brahm, at this point:

He says mind is independent of body, how is this in accordance with dependent co-arising? I thought that mind and body arises in dependence on each other, if we alter the brain then the mind will change and if we alter the mental content we change the physical structure of the brain. Although the mind will continue without the body when all life upholding functions has ceased, throughout life they are mutually dependent. Perhaps someone can shed som light on this.

[DooDoot]

For me, I have not read any suttas that support AB's personal view but may there might be something.

Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible. SN 22.53 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Misguided man, to whom have you ever known me to teach the Dhamma in that way? Misguided man, have I not stated in many ways consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness? But you, misguided man, have misrepresented us by your wrong grasp and injured yourself and stored up much demerit; for this will lead to your harm and suffering for a long time.

Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises. When consciousness arises dependent on the eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds, it is reckoned as ear-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the nose and odours, it is reckoned as nose-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the tongue and flavours, it is reckoned as tongue-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the body and tangibles, it is reckoned as body-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the mind and mind-objects, it is reckoned as mind-consciousness. Just as fire is reckoned by the particular condition dependent on which it burns—when fire burns dependent on logs, it is reckoned as a log fire; when fire burns dependent on faggots, it is reckoned as a faggot fire; when fire burns dependent on grass, it is reckoned as a grass fire; when fire burns dependent on cowdung, it is reckoned as a cowdung fire; when fire burns dependent on chaff, it is reckoned as a chaff fire; when fire burns dependent on rubbish, it is reckoned as a rubbish fire—so too, consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent on which it arises.

MN 38 https://suttacentral.net/en/mn38

It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

SN 12.61 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality.

MN 9 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html

Mentality-materiality is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate. SN 22.82

Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from Mentality-materiality as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes Mentality-materiality . SN 12.67

[paul]

They are both independent and interdependent. The analogy given is of two sheaves of wheat propped up against each other; they are independent entities, but when one falls the other falls too (Visuddhimagga XVIII: 32).

[chownah]

They are both independent and interdependent. The analogy given is of two sheaves of wheat propped up against each other; they are independent entities, but when one falls the other falls too (Visuddhimagga XVIII: 32).

Are you actually saying that they are two SEPERATE entities which are interdependent?
chownah

[justindesilva]

They are both independent and interdependent. The analogy given is of two sheaves of wheat propped up against each other; they are independent entities, but when one falls the other falls too (Visuddhimagga XVIII: 32).

Are you actually saying that they are two SEPERATE entities which are interdependent?
chownah

Agganna sutta is very clear on the independent mind.
Lord budda explains when this earth disappears the mind dwells in the brahma loka called Abhassara. There the mind stays luminous and feeding on delight.
When the earth reappears the mind again gets back to the earth and conditioned by formation of greed evolution of the mankind begins . The foods becoming harsh beings begin the conditioned arising thus getting back to cycle of samsara.
Please read agganna sutta to understand that after another long spell of time the minds will separate from the physical bodies to get to dwell in the Abhassars brahma loka.

[Zom]

Are you actually saying that they are two SEPERATE entities which are interdependent?

Yes, this is so.

[chownah]

They are both independent and interdependent. The analogy given is of two sheaves of wheat propped up against each other; they are independent entities, but when one falls the other falls too (Visuddhimagga XVIII: 32).

Are you actually saying that they are two SEPERATE entities which are interdependent?
chownah

Agganna sutta is very clear on the independent mind.
Lord budda explains when this earth disappears the mind dwells in the brahma loka called Abhassara. There the mind stays luminous and feeding on delight.
When the earth reappears the mind again gets back to the earth and conditioned by formation of greed evolution of the mankind begins . The foods becoming harsh beings begin the conditioned arising thus getting back to cycle of samsara.
Please read agganna sutta to understand that after another long spell of time the minds will separate from the physical bodies to get to dwell in the Abhassars brahma loka.

From what I have seen of the agganna sutta, what you are saying is incorrect. Maybe I am missing something. Can you provide a link to where what you present is supported?
chownah

[justindesilva]

Are you actually saying that they are two SEPERATE entities which are interdependent?
chownah

Agganna sutta is very clear on the independent mind.
Lord budda explains when this earth disappears the mind dwells in the brahma loka called Abhassara. There the mind stays luminous and feeding on delight.
When the earth reappears the mind again gets back to the earth and conditioned by formation of greed evolution of the mankind begins . The foods becoming harsh beings begin the conditioned arising thus getting back to cycle of samsara.
Please read agganna sutta to understand that after another long spell of time the minds will separate from the physical bodies to get to dwell in the Abhassars brahma loka.

From what I have seen of the agganna sutta, what you are saying is incorrect. Maybe I am missing something. Can you provide a link to where what you present is supported?
chownah

Hi Chownah , if you type " evolution : agganna sutta" the internet will give you this agganna sutta and in it under the beginning of the earth, you can find the description of the beings as luminous minds feeding on delight waiting in the abassara loka until the earth is recreated. It is a clear indication of the existence of the mind only.

[2600htz]

Hello:

Well you have the formless realms.You don't have a body there, not even a fine material body.
We have a body because of old kamma, because of a mental fabrication that has body intention.
So i guess technically there is a way mind can be independent of body, but if you have a mental and a body fabrication they are conjoined.

Regards.

[kverty]

I'm well aware that mind can exist without a body, for example beings reborn in the formless realm. My concern is with the sensuous world mainly where beings are reborn with a physical body, during a lifespan mind and body are quite tightly bound up with each other. Maybe the mind is independent of the body since it doesn't actually need a body for continued existence, whereas the body can't function without mind.

[paul]

The separation of mentality from materiality is the task of purification of view and is necessary in understanding the separation between body and the other factors in the various groupings, for example in the four foundations of mindfulness (body and three mental foundations). Since the second foundation, feelings, contains both 'feelings of the flesh', and 'feelings not of the flesh', feeling is an intermediate foundation between body and the two foundations of mind. Materiality is easier to grasp than mentality, so the practitioner should first "give attention to, discern, and define materiality only. For in proportion as materiality becomes quite definite, disentangled and quite clear to him, so the immaterial (mental) states that have that [materiality] as their object become plain of themselves too." Vism. XVIII:15

[DooDoot]

I'm well aware that mind can exist without a body, for example beings reborn in the formless realm.

So when a meditator enters into the formless jhanas, are you saying there is no physical body? This idea appears to not be supported by MN 43, which appears to say there is a physical body in the formless realms:

What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?

In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications [in & out breathes] have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided & his [five sense] faculties [eye, ear, nose, tongue & body] are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Then the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Emerging from that he entered the second jhana. Emerging from that, he entered the third... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the cessation of perception & feeling.

Then Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Anuruddha, "Ven. Anuruddha, the Blessed One is totally unbound.

"No, friend Ananda. The Blessed One isn't totally unbound. He has entered the cessation of perception & feeling.

DN 16: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#chap5

[JohnK]

I was recently reading Samana which is a book honoring Maha Boowa (published closely after his death, including many photos) and containing a collection of some of his translated talks. I distinctly recall a section where he is describing the incredible pain associated with sitting in meditation all night. At some point he sees that the body is separate from the pain which is separate from the mind; three distinct spheres operating in their own natural ways. He presents this as a very significant insight which enabled him to find relief from the severe pain (presumably the separate mind not being afflicted by the pain).
I hope I am not misrepresenting what he was saying.
If I get a chance later, I will quote directly.

I found it:

...This prompted wisdom to probe into the nature of the body, the nature of pain and the nature of the mind until all three were perceived clearly as separate realities, each true in its own natural sphere. I saw clearly that it was the mind that defined feeling as being painful and unpleasant. Otherwise, pain was merely a natural phenomenon that occurred. It was not an integral part of the body, nor was it intrinsic to the mind. As soon as this principle became absolutely clear, the pain vanished in an instant. At that moment, the body was simply the body – a separate reality on its own. Pain was simply feeling, and in a flash that feeling vanished straight into the mind. As soon as the pain vanished into the mind, the mind knew that the pain had disappeared. It just vanished without a trace. In addition, the entire physical body vanished from awareness. At that moment I was not consciously aware of the body at all. Only a simple and harmonious awareness remained, alone on its own. That’s all. The mind was so exceedingly refined as to be indescribable. It simply knew – a profoundly subtle inner state of awareness pervaded. The body had completely disappeared. Although my physical form still sat in meditation, I was completely unconscious of it. The pain too had disappeared. No physical feelings were left at all. Only the mind’s essential awareness remained. All thinking had stopped; the mind was not forming a single thought...

http://www.abhayagiri.org/books/491-samaa page 189.

[Nicolas]

I'm well aware that mind can exist without a body, for example beings reborn in the formless realm.

So when a meditator enters into the formless jhanas, are you saying there is no physical body? This idea appears to not be supported by MN 43, which appears to say there is a physical body in the formless realms: [...]

Those suttas describe beings in the human realm whose minds temporarily attain to those spheres in meditation. Their human bodies are still around, alive. Those reborn in those formless realms do not have a human body and do not access those spheres from the human plane, they abide in those formless realms for the extent of their lifespan.

[DooDoot]

Those reborn in those formless realms do not have a human body and do not access those spheres from the human plane, they abide in those formless realms for the extent of their lifespan.

Could you please kindly quote some suttas (only; please no commentary or scholar opinion) that support the above idea. Thanks