Anger

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: Anger

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:21 am

L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:21 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:48 am
Yes, children need to learn about anger. Making anger acceptable will never give the right lesson. Children copy their parents; parents modeling anger will teach anger. If a child becomes angry one should display displeasure with that anger.....one of the key things is to be calm when doing this. Can one be calm and angry?....I think not.

The charioteer thing is about CHECKING anger.
From the same link:
"One should give up anger"
"Overcome the angry by non-anger"
"yield not to anger"
chownah
Yes, but children become angry. It is necessary sometimes to speak sharply in a manner which may be perceived as angry, but which is not fueled by anger toward the child.

As stated in the Dhammapada, "He who checks rising anger as a charioteer checks a rolling chariot, him I call a true charioteer. Others only hold the reins." Anger is rising, and we can check it. We can understand its nature. We can hold the reins, and we can conduct ourselves accordingly. A circumstance which might inspire anger may need to be addressed without an angry heart but nevertheless in a firm manner.

As someone noted earlier:
mal4mac wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:25 am
I get the impression that most Theravadans would say "no" and suggest you just be aware of the anger and let it go, certainly don't express it. Tibetans (if I recall Ricard correctly) may argue that negative emotions have a positive side, and anger's positive side is *energy*. You shouldn't, of course, use that energy in negative way (beat someone up, say) but, still, you have that energy and can give it a positive twist - use the energy to argue long and hard against a person maybe. Of course, that long and hard argument should aim at relieving suffering all round.

So to answer your question: I'm not sure! I'm just sure you should avoid bringing more suffering into the world through your angry thoughts. Anyone have a definitive answer to this one? Anger good or bad? Let it go, or transform it and use its energy?
Holding the reins, we can perform skillful kamma instead of harmful kamma.
I think the appropriate definition of "check" is: "Check definition, to stop or arrest the motion of suddenly or forcibly: He checked the horse at the edge of the cliff."
I think that what this means is to quickly stop anger as it is arising.....it does not mean to let it manifest and then to control it.

The only place anger is held is in the heart.
I repeat:
From the same link:
"One should give up anger"
"Overcome the angry by non-anger"
"yield not to anger"
chownah

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L.N.
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Re: Anger

Post by L.N. » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:38 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:21 am
I think that what this means is to quickly stop anger as it is arising.....it does not mean to let it manifest and then to control it.
That is consistent with my understanding. In addition, anger is a common human emotion which everyone understands. People may say words in a sharp manner while not being angry.

The reference to anger being a chariot is, I believe, a reference to working with this mind/body phenomenon. Anger is just a part of it. Whatever arises in this mind/body (including anger), we can recognize it for what it is, and we can perform skillful kamma or unskillful kamma. Holding the reins, one may speak sharply while holding no anger in one's heart. A child may perceive this as anger. Sometimes this can be an effective method of teaching. See discussion on hiri/ottappa.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: Anger

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:51 pm

L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:11 pm
Children need to see /.../ that their conduct might elicit anger in another.
That would be teaching them that they are responsible for what other people think, feel, and do.

Which then leads to, among other things, the considerable earnings of psychotherapists and self-help gurus.
Most parents understand this and may display measured anger for the purposes of beneficial discipline. This does not mean they have anger in their heart.
That's a way to maintain external harmony at the cost of intrapersonal harmony.

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L.N.
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Re: Anger

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:26 am

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:51 pm
That would be teaching them that they are responsible for what other people think, feel, and do.
While each of us alone is responsible for his or her reactions, this does not mean we are incapable of harming others. Children need to learn that their words and actions can have an effect on others. It is part of being human.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

pegembara
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Re: Anger

Post by pegembara » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:47 am

Anger is rooted in fear. There is the fear of being taken advantage of, being bullied, of being humiliated or being viewed as weak. One who has no fear also has no anger. Parents use pretend anger to teach their children how to behave since the power equation is clearly on their side.
For surely he who, being strong,
Forbears the ones who are more weak
— Forever enduring the weak —
That is called the highest patience.

It is indeed a fault for one
Who returns anger for anger.
Not giving anger for anger,
One wins a double victory.

In this way he is healing both:
Himself and the other person.
The people who think "He's a fool,"
Just don't understand the dhamma.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .olen.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

binocular
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Re: Anger

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:35 pm

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:26 am
While each of us alone is responsible for his or her reactions, this does not mean we are incapable of harming others. Children need to learn that their words and actions can have an effect on others. It is part of being human.
How about adults learning that?

Such as adults learning that their words and actions have an effect on children?
Children need to learn that their words and actions can have an effect on others.
Why place such an emphasis and more responsibility on the party that is de facto and de iure the weaker one, ie. children?

- - -
pegembara wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:47 am
Parents use pretend anger to teach their children how to behave since the power equation is clearly on their side.
If the power equation is on the side of the parents, why use pretend anger to begin with?
I think that this pretend anger accomplishes that children begin to doubt whether the parents are indeed more powerful.

Also, children aren't idiots, and they can tell that pretend anger is a mixed message (which gives rise to doubts and confusion).

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L.N.
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Re: Anger

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:10 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:35 pm
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:26 am
While each of us alone is responsible for his or her reactions, this does not mean we are incapable of harming others. Children need to learn that their words and actions can have an effect on others. It is part of being human.
How about adults learning that?
How about learning that for oneself?
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

pegembara
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Anger

Post by pegembara » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:50 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:35 pm
pegembara wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:47 am
Parents use pretend anger to teach their children how to behave since the power equation is clearly on their side.
If the power equation is on the side of the parents, why use pretend anger to begin with?
Err, because it works. The child learns better never to stick his fingers into power sockets or run on to the road just by the tone of his parents' voice. Granted at that moment the fear(anger) was real.
When our children run towards the street or get too close to the stove, we are afraid they will hurt themselves and can sometimes overreact. A strong reaction in these situations is necessary for keeping your kids safe because they need to understand how serious a mistake they could be making. When we react, it is important to teach a lesson to our children so they will remember that what they are doing is not safe.

https://www.askdrsears.com/topics/paren ... -kids-safe
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

binocular
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Re: Anger

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:17 am

pegembara wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:50 am
Err, because it works. The child learns better never to stick his fingers into power sockets or run on to the road just by the tone of his parents' voice.
I wouldn't call that anger, though. A forcefully expressed statement is not the same as anger.

Granted, many people seem to be unable to tell the difference between anger and use of force; or between violence and use of force. Force is what one needs to use to move around furniture, or to push away a person that is trying to strangle one. One can also use force in speech, such as by speaking harshly, loudly etc.
Violence is when one uses force when angry or with the specific intention to harm others.

binocular
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Re: Anger

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:18 am

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:10 am
How about learning that for oneself?
How is one who evidently hasn't learned it themselves, to teach others how to do it??

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L.N.
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Re: Anger

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:40 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:18 am
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:10 am
How about learning that for oneself?
How is one who evidently hasn't learned it themselves, to teach others how to do it??
If you are not speaking about me personally, then hypothetically, the blind cannot lead the blind. Practically speaking, one can recognize the kernel of truth within oneself with or without prompting. One also can resist.

If you are speaking about me personally, then you are entitled to your opinion. If you feel the best choice is for you to focus on me, please feel free. I will work harder not to appear to take it personally, if that makes any difference (which I suspect it does not). Best wishes.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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