Difference between Mind and Consciousness

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DCM
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Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DCM » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:21 pm

Hi, I have just read the Mahānidāna Sutta (The Great Discourse on Origination), and going through the stages of dependant origination we have 'Mind-and-body conditions consciousness'. What is the difference between mind and consciousness?
Thanks.

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cappuccino
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by cappuccino » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:29 pm

With consciousness as condition, materiality-mentality
With volitional formations as condition, consciousness
With ignorance as condition, volitional formations
Dhamma is karma & rebirth.

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acinteyyo
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by acinteyyo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:05 pm

DCM wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:21 pm
Hi, I have just read the Mahānidāna Sutta (The Great Discourse on Origination), and going through the stages of dependant origination we have 'Mind-and-body conditions consciousness'. What is the difference between mind and consciousness?
Thanks.
Hi,
“mind“ here is usually defined as attention (manasikara), contact (phassa), feeling (vedana), perception (sañña) and intention (cetana).

There are six kinds of consciousness. Eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-consciousness.

That's the difference roughly.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

DCM
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DCM » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:38 pm

Thank you. The universals as they are called in the Ahidhamma are numerate as 7. Are the 5 you have mentioned listed in any suttas and labelled as Citta?

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acinteyyo
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by acinteyyo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:12 pm

DCM wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:38 pm
Thank you. The universals as they are called in the Ahidhamma are numerate as 7. Are the 5 you have mentioned listed in any suttas and labelled as Citta?
No, they aren't mentioned in the suttas labbeling citta. They are mentionend in the suttas describing nama in namarupa. When I remember the sutta you mentioned correctly, then it is not "mind and body" but "name and form" (namarupa) that conditions consciousness.

In SN 12.2 we find:
And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

DCM
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DCM » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:50 pm

I understand, In Maurice Walshes translation he calls it 'mind and body', so he obviously means name and form and the 5 mental factors you have pointed to.
Aren't these factors a part of Mind Consciousness though?

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acinteyyo
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by acinteyyo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:59 pm

DCM wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:50 pm
Aren't these factors a part of Mind Consciousness though?
I assume they are, yes.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

DooDoot
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:40 am

DCM wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:21 pm
Hi, I have just read the Mahānidāna Sutta (The Great Discourse on Origination), and going through the stages of dependant origination we have 'Mind-and-body conditions consciousness'. What is the difference between mind and consciousness?
The Mahānidāna Sutta appears to not define what consciousness is. The Mahānidāna Sutta is probably not the ideal sutta to study because it is a departure from the standard teaching about Dependent Origination found in the Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising, which defines consciousness, as follows:
And what, bhikkhus, is consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness. This is called consciousness.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
Consciousness operates together with the sense organs to give rise to sense experience/sense contact, as follows:
Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the nose and odours, nose-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the tongue and flavours, tongue-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the body and tangibles, body-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn148
The above teachings are the very basics of Buddhism. They should be learned & understood, similar to learning the A, B, Cs of the alphabet when first attending school.

As for 'mind' or 'mentality', this refers to other mental functions, such as feeling, perceiving, thinking, intention, attention, mindfulness, effort, etc, as described as follows:
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what, bhikkhus, is mind-and-body? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention: this is called mind. The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called body. Thus this mind and this body are together called mind-and-body.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
It is important to separate consciousness from mentality because, from a meditative purpose, mentality is a sense object of consciousness.

The Mahānidāna Sutta defines mind (nama) as "qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description", which is similar to the original Brahmanistic (Hindu) idea of 'nama' or 'naming'.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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LG2V
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by LG2V » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:49 am

acinteyyo wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:05 pm
Hi,
“mind“ here is usually defined as attention (manasikara), contact (phassa), feeling (vedana), perception (sañña) and intention (cetana).

There are six kinds of consciousness. Eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-consciousness.

That's the difference roughly.

best wishes, acinteyyo

Thank you. That clarified some things for me.
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DCM
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DCM » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:19 pm

Excellent, thank you for the description. I learnt primary Mind and metal factors when studying Mahayana Buddhism a year or so ago, and these 5 types of 'mentality' are the equivalent ever present mental factors, so I understand now what is meant by 'mentality' here.

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