Difference between Mind and Consciousness

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DCM
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Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DCM » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:21 pm

Hi, I have just read the Mahānidāna Sutta (The Great Discourse on Origination), and going through the stages of dependant origination we have 'Mind-and-body conditions consciousness'. What is the difference between mind and consciousness?
Thanks.

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cappuccino
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by cappuccino » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:29 pm

With consciousness as condition, materiality-mentality
With volitional formations as condition, consciousness
With ignorance as condition, volitional formations

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acinteyyo
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by acinteyyo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:05 pm

DCM wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:21 pm
Hi, I have just read the Mahānidāna Sutta (The Great Discourse on Origination), and going through the stages of dependant origination we have 'Mind-and-body conditions consciousness'. What is the difference between mind and consciousness?
Thanks.
Hi,
“mind“ here is usually defined as attention (manasikara), contact (phassa), feeling (vedana), perception (sañña) and intention (cetana).

There are six kinds of consciousness. Eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-consciousness.

That's the difference roughly.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DCM » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:38 pm

Thank you. The universals as they are called in the Ahidhamma are numerate as 7. Are the 5 you have mentioned listed in any suttas and labelled as Citta?

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acinteyyo
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by acinteyyo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:12 pm

DCM wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:38 pm
Thank you. The universals as they are called in the Ahidhamma are numerate as 7. Are the 5 you have mentioned listed in any suttas and labelled as Citta?
No, they aren't mentioned in the suttas labbeling citta. They are mentionend in the suttas describing nama in namarupa. When I remember the sutta you mentioned correctly, then it is not "mind and body" but "name and form" (namarupa) that conditions consciousness.

In SN 12.2 we find:
And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

DCM
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DCM » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:50 pm

I understand, In Maurice Walshes translation he calls it 'mind and body', so he obviously means name and form and the 5 mental factors you have pointed to.
Aren't these factors a part of Mind Consciousness though?

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acinteyyo
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by acinteyyo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:59 pm

DCM wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:50 pm
Aren't these factors a part of Mind Consciousness though?
I assume they are, yes.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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DooDoot
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:40 am

DCM wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:21 pm
Hi, I have just read the Mahānidāna Sutta (The Great Discourse on Origination), and going through the stages of dependant origination we have 'Mind-and-body conditions consciousness'. What is the difference between mind and consciousness?
The Mahānidāna Sutta appears to not define what consciousness is. The Mahānidāna Sutta is probably not the ideal sutta to study because it is a departure from the standard teaching about Dependent Origination found in the Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising, which defines consciousness, as follows:
And what, bhikkhus, is consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness. This is called consciousness.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
Consciousness operates together with the sense organs to give rise to sense experience/sense contact, as follows:
Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the nose and odours, nose-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the tongue and flavours, tongue-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the body and tangibles, body-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn148
The above teachings are the very basics of Buddhism. They should be learned & understood, similar to learning the A, B, Cs of the alphabet when first attending school.

As for 'mind' or 'mentality', this refers to other mental functions, such as feeling, perceiving, thinking, intention, attention, mindfulness, effort, etc, as described as follows:
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what, bhikkhus, is mind-and-body? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention: this is called mind. The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called body. Thus this mind and this body are together called mind-and-body.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2
It is important to separate consciousness from mentality because, from a meditative purpose, mentality is a sense object of consciousness.

The Mahānidāna Sutta defines mind (nama) as "qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description", which is similar to the original Brahmanistic (Hindu) idea of 'nama' or 'naming'.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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LG2V
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by LG2V » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:49 am

acinteyyo wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:05 pm
Hi,
“mind“ here is usually defined as attention (manasikara), contact (phassa), feeling (vedana), perception (sañña) and intention (cetana).

There are six kinds of consciousness. Eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-consciousness.

That's the difference roughly.

best wishes, acinteyyo

Thank you. That clarified some things for me.
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DCM » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:19 pm

Excellent, thank you for the description. I learnt primary Mind and metal factors when studying Mahayana Buddhism a year or so ago, and these 5 types of 'mentality' are the equivalent ever present mental factors, so I understand now what is meant by 'mentality' here.

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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by dylanj » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:30 am

The issue is that naama-ruupa does not mean mind-body/mentality-materiality or anything like that. It means name & form. Naama is name, literally. The Buddha defined it as feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention. These are naming, discriminating, identifying functions of the mind. Consciousness isn't there. Consciousness forms a pair with naama-ruupa. It's not included in it. Clearly consciousness is part of mind.

When we translate naama as name (the word for name in the personal sense in paali is, in fact, naama) there's no dilemma.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DooDoot
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:40 am

maranadhammomhi wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:30 am
The issue is that naama-ruupa does not mean mind-body/mentality-materiality or anything like that. It means name & form. Naama is name, literally. The Buddha defined it as feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention. These are naming, discriminating, identifying functions of the mind.
The 'nama' posited above seems to be the Brahmanistic meaning of the term (here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namarupa-vyakarana) rather than the Buddhist meaning. The Buddha often had discussions with & gave teachings to Brahmans, who were not fluent in Buddhism. In other words, in Buddhism, nama-rupa seems to mean 'mind-body/mentality-materiality'. In Brahmanism, it seems to mean 'naming-forms'.
At Savatthi. Then the brahman Jata Bharadvaja went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After this exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he addressed the Blessed One with a verse:

A tangle within,
a tangle without,
people are entangled
in a tangle.
Gotama, I ask you this:
who can untangle this tangle?

[The Buddha:]
A man established in virtue,
discerning,
developing discernment & mind,
a monk ardent, astute:
he can untangle this tangle.

Those whose passion,
aversion,
& ignorance
have faded away,
arahants, their effluents ended:
for them the tangle's untangled.

Where name-&-form,
along with perception
of impingement & form,
totally stop without trace:
that's where the tangle
is cut
.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by dylanj » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:43 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:40 am
maranadhammomhi wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:30 am
The issue is that naama-ruupa does not mean mind-body/mentality-materiality or anything like that. It means name & form. Naama is name, literally. The Buddha defined it as feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention. These are naming, discriminating, identifying functions of the mind.
The 'nama' posited above seems to be the Brahmanistic meaning of the term (here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namarupa-vyakarana) rather than the Buddhist meaning. The Buddha often had discussions with & gave teachings to Brahmans, who were not fluent in Buddhism. In other words, in Buddhism, nama-rupa seems to mean 'mind-body/mentality-materiality'. In Brahmanism, it seems to mean 'naming-forms'.
Please explain why mind-body/mentality-materiality is preferable in Buddhism.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DooDoot
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:01 am

maranadhammomhi wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:43 am
Please explain why mind-body/mentality-materiality is preferable in Buddhism.
Quick reply or theory:

* Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention seem to be much more than naming, discriminating, identifying functions of the mind, particularly attention & volition.

* Nama or 'namati' is found in MN 19, where it appears to refer to the 'inclination' of the mind when the mind is affected by sensual desire or ill-will. This inclination is an 'energetic urge' rather than mere "naming'. In other words, it refers to the mind itself conditioned & pushed by defilement.

* Rupa seems to be defined as the physical form comprised of elements of earth, wind, fire & water, which appear obviously more than mere 'names' or 'naming'. For example, MN 62 refers to 'rupa' as hardness, moisture, warmth, bodily organs, such as lungs, heart, liver, kidneys, etc. Since these rupa phenomena appear universally the same for each person, obviously they are not mere 'names'.

* Nama-rupa & consciousness in Buddhism appear to be mutually interdependent therefore it appears there cannot be a 'luminous consciousness without feature' together with the stopping of nama-rupa. For example, MN 9, SN 12.67, etc, say consciousness & nama-rupa arise & extinguish together. Therefore, it appears to be no random matter that suttas that refer to consciousness without nama-rupa (such as DN 11, MN 49 & SN 7.6) are spoken to Brahmans who have no knowledge of Buddhism. The Buddha appears to be telling these Brahmans to stop naming forms, which is concentration (samadhi).

* When asava (defilments) erupt/flow out from ignorance, they disturb & agitate the mind-body. For example, there is a physical body that is affected by defilements, causing this body to become agitated, increase its blood flood & blood pressure, generate more hormones, even have diseases such as cancer & heart attacks due to mental defilements (asava). There is a physical body that when conditioned/polluted by ignorance & defilements that develops physical symptoms of stress, physical arousal &/or disease/illness.

* The fact that mere ignorant (avicca) thoughts (sankhara) can cause physical sexual organs (rupa) to become erect via increased blood & hormonal flow show 'rupa' as 'materiality' is a valid interpretation of dependent origination.
So if a monk should wish: 'May neither my body be fatigued nor my eyes, and may my mind, through lack of clinging, be released from fermentations,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.

SN 54.8
When one abides inflamed by lust, fettered, infatuated, contemplating gratification, then the five aggregates affected by clinging are built up for oneself in the future; and one’s craving—which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this and that—increases. One’s bodily and mental troubles increase, one’s bodily and mental torments increase, one’s bodily and mental fevers increase, and one experiences bodily and mental suffering. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.

MN 149

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dylanj
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Re: Difference between Mind and Consciousness

Post by dylanj » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:01 am
maranadhammomhi wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:43 am
Please explain why mind-body/mentality-materiality is preferable in Buddhism.
Quick reply or theory:
[/quote]

But if naama-ruupa is a specific set of mental factors, & consciousness is something that goes along with yet is not included in naama-ruupa, how could there be any basis for rendering naama as mind/mentality? Is consciousness not part of mind/mentality?

Anyway I don't agree with your view & stand by mine.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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