AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

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binocular
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AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:41 am

Greetings.


AN 10.76 lists triads of things which need to be dispelled in order to ultimately dispel birth, decay, and death. The basic triad seems to be lack of shame, lack of remorse, and negligence; and dispelling these three, one can then dispel other things, up to and including birth, decay, and death.

In this sutta, what do lack of shame, lack of remorse, and negligence refer to?
Is this meant in a general sense, as in whatever a person currently considers to be shame, remorse, and negligence; or is it meant in some specific sense?

I'm asking because shame, remorse, and negligence can be felt in various contexts, skillful and unskillful ones.
For example, one can be neglectful in how one sweeps the floor; but a drug dealer can also be neglectful in how he prepares the drugs meant for selling on the street.
One can feel remorse about harshly speaking to one's parents; but one can also feel remorse about not buying a lottery ticket.
One can feel shame when telling a deliberate lie; but one can also feel shame when one doesn't have the newest iPhone when one's friends have it.



Thank you.


Below is the sutta in full:
76. Bhikkhus, if these three things were not evident, the Thus Gone One rightfully enlightened would not have been born in the world. The discipline declared by the Thus Gone One would not have taken root. What three?

Birth, decay and death- Bhikkhus, if these three things were not evident in the world, the Thus Gone One rightfully enlightened, would not have been born in the world. The discipline declared by the Thus Gone One would not have taken root. Bhikkhus, since these three things are evident in the world, the Thus Gone One rightfully enlightened is born in the world. The discipline declared by the Thus Gone One has taken root.

Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to dispel birth, decay and death. What three? Greed, hate and delusion. Bhikkhus, without dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel birth, decay and death. The first step seems tobe to dispel

Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to dispel greed, hate and delusion. What three? View of a self, doubts and grasping virtues as the highest aim. Bhikkhus, without dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel greed, hate and delusion.

Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to dispel the view of a self, doubts and grasping virtues as the highest aim. What three? Unwise attention, practising in the wrong path and the mind's immobility. Bhikkhus, without dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel the view of a self, doubts and grasping virtues as the highest aim.

Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to dispel unwise atttention practising in the wrong path and the mind's immobility. What three? Forgetfulness, lack of mindful awareness and derangement of mind.. Bhikkhus, without dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel unwise attention, practising in the wrong path and the mind's immobility.

Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to dispel forgetfulness, lack of mindful awareness and derangement of mind.. What three? Dislike to see noble ones, dislike to hear the noble Teaching and the reproaching mind.. Bhikkhus, without dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel forgetfulness, lack of mindful awareness and derangement of mind.

Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to dispel the dislike to see noble ones, to hear the noble teaching and the reproaching mind. What three? Excitement, lack of restraint and evil virtues Bhikkhus, without dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel the dislike to see noble ones, to hear the noble Teaching and the reproaching mind.

Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to dispel excitement, lack of restraint and evil virtues. What three? Lack of faith, stinginess and laziness. Bhikkhus, without dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel excitement, lack of restraint and evil virtues.

Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to dispel lack of faith, stinginess and laziness. What three? Disrespect, unruliness and evil friendship. Bhikkhus, without dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel lack of faith, stinginess and laziness.

Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to dispel disrespect, unruliness and evil friendship. What three? Lack of shame, lack of remorse and negligence. Bhikkhus, without dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel disrespect, unruliness and evil friendship.

Bhikkhus, the shameless one without remorse becomes negligent It is not possible for the negligent one to dispel direspect, unruliness and evil friendship. It is not possisble for the one associating evil friends to gain faith, dispel stinginess and laziness. It is not possible for the lazy one to dispel excitement, lack of restraint and evil virtues. It is not possible for the unvirtuous one to dispel the dislike to see noble ones, to hear the teaching of the noble ones and dispel the reproaching mind. It is not possible for one with a reproaching mind to dispel forgetfulness, lack of mindful awareness and the derangement of mind. It is not possible for one with deranged mind to dispel unwise attention, practising in the wrong path and the mind's immobility. It is not possible for one with a sluggish mind to dispel the view of a self, doubts, and grasping virtues as the highest aim. It is not possible for the doubting one to dispel greed, hate and delusion. Without dispelling greed, hate and delusion it is not possible to dispel birth, decay and death.

Bhikkhus, dispelling three things, it is possible to dispel birth, decay and death. What three? Greed, hate and delusion. Bhikkhus, dispelling these three things, it is possible to dispel birth, decay and death.

Bhikkhus, dispelling three things, it is possible to dispel greed, hate and delusion. What three? View of a self, doubts and grasping virtues as the highest aim. Bhikkhus, dispelling these three things, it is possible to dispel greed, hate and delusion.

Bhikkhus, dispelling three things, it is possible to dispel the view of a self, doubts and grasping virtues as the highest aim. What three? Unwise attention, practising in the wrong path and the mind's immobility Bhikkhus, dispelling these three things, it is possible to dispel the view of a self, doubts and grasping virtues as the highest aim.

Bhikkhus, dispelling three things, it is possible to dispel unwise atttention practising in the wrong path and the mind's immobility. What three? Forgetfulness, lack of mindful awareness and derangement of mind.. Bhikkhus, dispelling these three things, it is possible to dispel unwise attention, practising in the wrong path and the mind's immobility.

Bhikkhus, dispelling three things, it is possible to dispel forgetfulness, lack of mindful awareness and derangement of mind.. What three? Dislike to see noble ones, dislike to hear the noble Teaching and the reproaching mind.. Bhikkhus, dispelling these three things, it is possible to dispel forgetfulness, lack of mindful awareness and derangement of mind.

Bhikkhus, dispelling three things, it is possible to dispel the dislike to see noble ones, to hear the noble teaching and the reproaching mind. What three? Excitement, lack of restraint and evil virtues Bhikkhus, dispelling these three things, it is possible to dispel the dislike to see noble ones, to hear the noble Teaching and the reproaching mind.

Bhikkhus, dispelling three things, it is possible to dispel excitement, lack of restraint and evil virtues. What three? Lack of faith, stinginess and laziness. Bhikkhus, dispelling these three things, it is possible to dispel excitement, lack of restraint and evil virtues.

Bhikkhus, dispelling three things, it is possible to dispel lack of faith, stinginess and laziness. What three? Disrespect, unruliness and evil friendship. Bhikkhus, dispelling these three things, it is possible to dispel lack of faith, stinginess and laziness.

Bhikkhus, dispelling three things, it is possible to dispel disrespect, unruliness and evil friendship. What three? Lack of shame, lack of remorse and negligence. Bhikkhus, dispelling these three things, it is possible to dispel disrespect, unruliness and evil friendship.

Bhikkhus, the shameful one with remorse becomes diligent. It is possible for the diligent one to dispel direspect, unruliness and evil friendship. It is possisble for the one associating spiritual friends to gain faith, dispel stinginess and laziness. It is possible for the one with aroused effort to dispel excitement, lack of restraint and evil virtues. It is possible for the virtuous one to dispel the dislike to see noble ones, to hear the Teaching of the noble ones and dispel the reproaching mind. It is possible for one without a reproaching mind to dispel forgetfulness, lack of mindful awareness and the derangement of mind. It is possible for one without deranged mind to dispel unwise attention, practising in the wrong path and the mind's immobility. It is possible for one with a mobile mind to dispel the view of a self, doubts, and grasping virtues as the highest aim. It is possible for one without doubts to dispel greed, hate and delusion. Dispelling greed, hate and delusion it is possible to dispel birth, decay and death.

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html

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Sam Vara
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:42 am

Perhaps the clue is in the structure of the sutta, in that it is like an inverted pyramid. I think the "basic triad" is at the other end, being greed, hate, and delusion. Shame, remorse and negligence are to be applied to disrespect, unruliness, and evil friendship, the next stage towards the basic triad. They dovetail together really well, in that if we have shame, we will not be disrespectful; if we have remorse, we cannot be unruly; and if we are heedful, then we will avoid evil friendship.

Thus, we can think about negligence as applying to sweeping or drug-dealing, but the suggestion here is that we should think of it as applying to avoiding evil friendship. This will help us further along the path. If we have avoided evil friendship, then drug-dealing will never be a problem.

We can think about remorse as it applies to harsh speech to parents or to lotteries, but the suggestion is that we apply it to unruliness. If we are not unruly, then we avoid all types of remorse, those included.

We can think about shame as applying to lies and iPhones (although that is not, I think, the type of "shame" meant). But again, the suggestion is that we apply it to respecting others. A person who avoids shame avoids lying and does not worry about iPhones.

Thanks for raising this one. I think this is an incredibly beautiful sutta.

paul
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by paul » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:24 am

Hiri-ottappa, moral shame and moral dread, are primary formations in all wholesome consciousness.
"Two lucid things, O monks, protect the world: moral shame and moral dread. If these two things were not to protect the world, then one would respect neither one's mother, nor one's mother's sister, nor one's brother's wife, nor one's teacher's wife..." AN 2:9

Bikkhu Bodhi on hiri-ottappa:
"In the present-day world, with its secularization of all values, such notions as shame and fear of wrong are bound to appear antiquated, relics from a puritanical past when superstition and dogma manacled our rights to uninhibited self-expression."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ay_23.html

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L.N.
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by L.N. » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:03 pm

To focus in on the particular part of the sutta:
binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:41 am
... Bhikkhus, without dispelling three things, it is not possible to dispel disrespect, unruliness and evil friendship. What three? Lack of shame, lack of remorse and negligence. Bhikkhus, without dispelling these three things, it is not possible to dispel disrespect, unruliness and evil friendship.

Bhikkhus, the shameless one without remorse becomes negligent. It is not possible for the negligent one to dispel direspect, unruliness and evil friendship. It is not possisble for the one associating evil friends to gain faith, dispel stinginess and laziness. It is not possible for the lazy one to dispel excitement, lack of restraint and evil virtues. It is not possible for the unvirtuous one to dispel the dislike to see noble ones, to hear the teaching of the noble ones and dispel the reproaching mind. It is not possible for one with a reproaching mind to dispel forgetfulness, lack of mindful awareness and the derangement of mind. It is not possible for one with deranged mind to dispel unwise attention, practising in the wrong path and the mind's immobility. It is not possible for one with a sluggish mind to dispel the view of a self, doubts, and grasping virtues as the highest aim. It is not possible for the doubting one to dispel greed, hate and delusion. Without dispelling greed, hate and delusion it is not possible to dispel birth, decay and death. ...
Interesting to note the "one things leads to another" quality of the discussion. Kamma of "the shameless one without remorse" results in negligence. Kamma of negligence results in disrespect and evil friendship. Kamma of evil friendship results in laziness. And so on.

To apply this in a wise way probably requires a general orientation toward the Path.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:10 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:42 am
Perhaps the clue is in the structure of the sutta, in that it is like an inverted pyramid. I think the "basic triad" is at the other end, being greed, hate, and delusion. Shame, remorse and negligence are to be applied to disrespect, unruliness, and evil friendship, the next stage towards the basic triad. They dovetail together really well, in that if we have shame, we will not be disrespectful; if we have remorse, we cannot be unruly; and if we are heedful, then we will avoid evil friendship.

Thus, we can think about negligence as applying to sweeping or drug-dealing, but the suggestion here is that we should think of it as applying to avoiding evil friendship. This will help us further along the path. If we have avoided evil friendship, then drug-dealing will never be a problem.

We can think about remorse as it applies to harsh speech to parents or to lotteries, but the suggestion is that we apply it to unruliness. If we are not unruly, then we avoid all types of remorse, those included.

We can think about shame as applying to lies and iPhones (although that is not, I think, the type of "shame" meant). But again, the suggestion is that we apply it to respecting others. A person who avoids shame avoids lying and does not worry about iPhones.
Where do you see those suggestions?

There are various methods for reading lists in the suttas properly, but I'm not sure what applies here.

You're reading the lists in such a way that the first item in one triad corresponds to the first item in the next triad, the second item to the second one, the third to the third. How come you read that way?

binocular
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:20 pm

L.N. wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:03 pm
To apply this in a wise way probably requires a general orientation toward the Path.
Yes, this is what I've been wondering. We can imagine shame, remorse, and negligence in many ways; but probably only very specific types of shame, remorse, and negligence are conducive to the type of diligence with which one can dispel direspect, unruliness, and evil friendship; and so on.

A similar issue comes up with the Gotami Sutta:
"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
How general are these qualities? Does any quality that leads to dispassion for a particular person at a particular time qualifiy for 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction'?

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:11 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:10 pm
Where do you see those suggestions?

There are various methods for reading lists in the suttas properly, but I'm not sure what applies here.

You're reading the lists in such a way that the first item in one triad corresponds to the first item in the next triad, the second item to the second one, the third to the third. How come you read that way?
I think that they are suggested by the structure of the sutta. A list is just a list; I've not yet felt the need for a method when dealing with lists, but you know of some they would be interesting reading. If you are unconvinced by the idea that the first item in one triad corresponds to the first in the adjacent triad, then you could simply take them as a triad. When we understand shame, remorse, and lack of negligence, then we can apply them en masse to situations where we are in danger of falling into disrespect, unruliness, and evil friendship.

Of course, the fact that other suttas decouple these qualities means that they are capable of being beneficially applied in other situations too. But the formula in this particular sutta suggests that here is a fruitful way to apply them.

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:38 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:41 am
In this sutta, what do lack of shame, lack of remorse, and negligence refer to?
'Shame' is similar to 'conscience'; the feeling of unpleasantness if hurting another person. 'Negligence' is in relation to or dependent upon the shame. Thus, the sutta says: "Bhikkhus, the shameful one with remorse becomes diligent."
binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:41 am
I'm asking because shame, remorse, and negligence can be felt in various contexts, skillful and unskillful ones.
Real spiritual 'hiri' (shame) is always skillful; known within & by the heart. The unskillful shame arises from social, religious &/or political brainwashing therefore is not really 'shame' but social conformity or political correctness.
binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:41 am
example, one can be neglectful in how one sweeps the floor; but a drug dealer can also be neglectful in how he prepares the drugs meant for selling on the street.
The drug dealer can be negligent but this type of negligence is not related to 'shame' because the drug dealer does not have spiritual shame.
binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:41 am
One can feel remorse about harshly speaking to one's parents; but one can also feel remorse about not buying a lottery ticket.
The 1st shame is based on the dread of hurting others where as the 2nd shame is based on greed & delusion/fantasy.
binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:41 am
One can feel shame when telling a deliberate lie; but one can also feel shame when one doesn't have the newest iPhone when one's friends have it.
A deliberate lie corrupts one's mind plus deceives others where as iPhone is just social brainwashing, which is why the 2nd shame can lead to dukkha.

During the 1st world war, many men were shamed with white feathers, particularly by feminists, into joining the war. This shame did not protect those men from the horrors & traumas of the battlefield. The Bible says: "Do not be deceived; you cannot make a fool out of god (kammic law); each reaps what he/she sows". Dhammic shame accords with non-harming, the five precepts & thus results in being able to associate with noble people, i.e., engage in noble friendship. This is an important sutta & the questions are important because any obligation or pressure to engage in social conformity or political correctness is the mark of association with evil companions, as this sutta infers.

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by chownah » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:35 am

Remember right view with effluents and right view without effluents? Maybe shame can be shame with effluents and shame without effluents. For example mundane everyday shame can keep a child from stealing while shame at breaking a precept can help someone work harder at discerning the right path.
chownah

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by L.N. » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:51 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:35 am
Remember right view with effluents and right view without effluents? Maybe shame can be shame with effluents and shame without effluents. For example mundane everyday shame can keep a child from stealing while shame at breaking a precept can help someone work harder at discerning the right path.
chownah
Well said.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:21 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:11 pm
I think that they are suggested by the structure of the sutta. A list is just a list; I've not yet felt the need for a method when dealing with lists, but you know of some they would be interesting reading.
MN 20, for example, clearly states how one should proceed: first put into action the first instruction on the list, but then, if that doesn't work, go with the second one, and so on.
On the other hand, AN 5.161 lists the brahmaviharas, but it says nothing about the order in which they are to be applied.
To say nothing of the complexity of applying the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path.

(I'll start a new thread on this.)
If you are unconvinced by the idea that the first item in one triad corresponds to the first in the adjacent triad, then you could simply take them as a triad.
That's what I've done so far, esp. given the summary paragraphs.

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:38 am
'Shame' is similar to 'conscience'; the feeling of unpleasantness if hurting another person. 'Negligence' is in relation to or dependent upon the shame. Thus, the sutta says: "Bhikkhus, the shameful one with remorse becomes diligent."
Yes, the items in each triad appear to be connected in a causal way (which is another reason to read each triad as one entity).
Real spiritual 'hiri' (shame) is always skillful; known within & by the heart. The unskillful shame arises from social, religious &/or political brainwashing therefore is not really 'shame' but social conformity or political correctness.
The whole structure/process seems to begin with shame -- and it apparently has to be the right kind of shame.

But how can one have the right kind of shame?

If the right kind of shame is Dhammic, and associating with noble friends (from whom one learns about what is the right kind of shame and what isn't) is a prerequisite for such shame, but at the same time, the right kind of shame is already a prerequisite for noble friendship -- then this looks like a Catch 22 situation: one has to have the right kind of shame to get the right kind of shame.

Unless the items in the list of this sutta are to be taken in a similar manner as the cultivation of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path: namely, there are causal links between the factors, but one still has to work on all of them simultaneously.

This Catch 22 could be resolved in a similar way as Ven. Thanissaro suggests here:
There's a passage in the Canon where the Buddha says that a person who doesn't have a basic level of happiness and inner goodness simply cannot do goodness. Sounds like a Catch-22, but that's not the point. The point is we all have a certain amount of goodness in our minds, and so we should tap into that first.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ions2.html
So, similarly, perhaps everyone already feels some shame to begin with, and even though it's not necessarily a consistently skillful shame, it may be good enough for a start (but that also seems to imply that progress on the Path isn't a straight line, one sure step after another, but more like two steps forward, one step back, or like walking around in circles, but where the centers of the circles can be ordered into a line of progression -- tough to accept this as progress).
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:38 am
Real spiritual 'hiri' (shame) is always skillful; known within & by the heart. The unskillful shame arises from social, religious &/or political brainwashing therefore is not really 'shame' but social conformity or political correctness.
But how can one know which shame is which?
Because when felt, it all just feels like shame, without any notion of its provenance.

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:35 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:35 am
Remember right view with effluents and right view without effluents? Maybe shame can be shame with effluents and shame without effluents. For example mundane everyday shame can keep a child from stealing while shame at breaking a precept can help someone work harder at discerning the right path.
Sure. But does mundane right shame lead to transcendental right shame?
Does right shame with effluents lead to right shame without effluents?

And if yes, how??

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:42 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:41 am
Below is the sutta in full:
It's another Uppalavaṇṇā hack job. Here's Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
(1) “Bhikkhus, if these three things were not found in the world, the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One would not arise in the world, and the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by him would not shine in the world. What three? Birth, old age, and death. If these three things were not found in the world, the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One would not arise in the world, and the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by him would not shine in the world. But because these three things are found in the world, the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One arises in the world, and the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by him shines in the world.

(2) “Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning birth, old age, and death. What three? Lust, hatred, and delusion. Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning birth, old age, and death.

(3) “Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning lust, hatred, and delusion. What three? Personal-existence view, doubt, and wrong grasp of behavior and observances. Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning lust, hatred, and delusion.

(4) “Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning personal-existence view, doubt, and wrong grasp of behavior and observances. What three? Careless attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness. Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning personal-existence view, doubt, and wrong grasp of behavior and observances.

(5)“Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning careless attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness. What three? Muddle-mindedness, lack of clear comprehension, and mental distraction. Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning careless attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness.

(6) “Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning muddle-mindedness, lack of clear comprehension, and mental distraction. What three? Lack of desire to see the noble ones, lack of desire to hear the noble Dhamma, and a mind bent on criticism. Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning muddle-mindedness, lack of clear comprehension, and mental distraction.

(7) “Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning lack of desire to see the noble ones, lack of desire to hear the noble Dhamma, and a mind bent on criticism. What three? Restlessness, non-restraint, and immorality. Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning lack of desire to see the noble ones, lack of desire to hear the noble Dhamma, and a mind bent on criticism.

(8) “Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning restlessness, non-restraint, and immorality. What three? Lack of faith, uncharitableness, and laziness. Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning restlessness, non-restraint, and immorality.

(9) “Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning lack of faith, uncharitableness, and laziness. What three? Disrespect, being difficult to correct, and bad friendship. Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning lack of faith, uncharitableness, and laziness.

(10) “Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning disrespect, being difficult to correct, and bad friendship. What three? Moral shamelessness, moral recklessness, and heedlessness. Without having abandoned these three things, one is incapable of abandoning disrespect, being difficult to correct, and bad friendship.

“Bhikkhus, one who is morally shameless and morally reckless is heedless. One who is heedless is incapable of abandoning disrespect, being difficult to correct, and bad friendship. One who has bad friends is incapable of abandoning lack of faith, uncharitableness, and laziness. One who is lazy is incapable of abandoning restlessness, non-restraint, and immorality. One who is immoral is incapable of abandoning lack of desire to see the noble ones, lack of desire to hear the noble Dhamma, and a mind bent on criticism. One who has a mind bent on criticism is incapable of abandoning muddle-mindedness, lack of clear comprehension, and mental distraction. One who is mentally distracted is incapable of abandoning careless attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness. One who is mentally sluggish is incapable of abandoning personal-existence view, doubt, and wrong grasp of behavior and observances. One who has doubt is incapable of abandoning lust, hatred, and delusion. Without having abandoned lust, hatred, and delusion, one is incapable of abandoning birth, old age, and death.

(1) “Bhikkhus, having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning birth, old age, and death. What three? Lust, hatred, and delusion. Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning birth, old age, and death.

(2) “Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning lust, hatred, and delusion. What three? Personal-existence view, doubt, and wrong grasp of behavior and observances. Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning lust, hatred, and delusion.

(3) “Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning personal-existence view, doubt, and wrong grasp of behavior and observances. What three? Careless attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness. Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning personal-existence view, doubt, and wrong grasp of behavior and observances.

(4) “Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning careless attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness. What three? Muddle-mindedness, lack of clear comprehension, and mental distraction. Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning careless attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness.

(5) “Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning muddle-mindedness, lack of clear comprehension, and mental distraction. What three? Lack of desire to see the noble ones, lack of desire to hear the noble Dhamma, and a mind bent on criticism. Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning muddle-mindedness, lack of clear comprehension, and mental distraction.

(6) “Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning lack of desire to see the noble ones, lack of desire to hear the noble Dhamma, and a mind bent on criticism. What three? Restlessness, non-restraint, and immorality. Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning lack of desire to see the noble ones, lack of desire to hear the noble Dhamma, and a mind bent on criticism.

(7) “Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning restlessness, non-restraint, and immorality. What three? Lack of faith, uncharitableness, and laziness. Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning restlessness, non-restraint, and immorality.

(8) “Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning lack of faith, uncharitableness, and laziness. What three? Disrespect, being difficult to correct, and bad friendship. Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning lack of faith, uncharitableness, and laziness.

(9) “Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning disrespect, being difficult to correct, and bad friendship. What three? Moral shamelessness, moral recklessness, and heedlessness. Having abandoned these three things, one is capable of abandoning disrespect, being difficult to correct, and bad friendship.

(10) “Bhikkhus, one who has a sense of moral shame and moral dread is heedful. One who is heedful is capable of abandoning disrespect, being difficult to speak to, and bad friendship. One who has good friends is capable of abandoning lack of faith, uncharitableness, and laziness. One who is energetic is capable of abandoning restlessness, non-restraint, and immorality. One who is virtuous is capable of abandoning lack of desire to see the noble ones, lack of desire to hear the noble Dhamma, and a mind bent on criticism. One whose mind is not bent on criticism is capable of abandoning muddle-mindedness, lack of clear comprehension, and mental distraction. One who has an undistracted mind is capable of abandoning careless attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness. One who has an unsluggish mind is capable of abandoning personal-existence view, doubt, and wrong grasp of behavior and observances. One without doubt is capable of abandoning lust, hatred, and delusion. Having abandoned lust, hatred, and delusion, one is capable of abandoning birth, old age, and death.”

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:50 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:41 am
In this sutta, what do lack of shame, lack of remorse, and negligence refer to?
Shame (hiri) is what restrains one from unwholesome acts by way of self-regard. Lack of shame (ahiri) is its opposite.

"Lack of remorse" is just a bad translation. Ottappa is moral caution or regard for consequences. It's what restrains one from unwholesome acts either by consideration of how they will be viewed by others or out of regard for their undesirable consequences. Anottappa is its opposite: moral recklessness or disregard for consequences.

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:11 am

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:22 am
The whole structure/process seems to begin with shame -- and it apparently has to be the right kind of shame. But how can one have the right kind of shame?
The right shame is sensitive to harm & harmlessness. As soon as it discerns any harm or suffering arising from an action, it gives up that type of action.
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:22 am
If the right kind of shame is Dhammic, and associating with noble friends (from whom one learns about what is the right kind of shame and what isn't) is a prerequisite for such shame...
The sutta does not say this. The sutta says shame comes 1st. When there is right shame, evil friendship is shunned & noble friendship is eventually found. Right shame should not be indoctrinated but should occur naturally.
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:22 am
but at the same time, the right kind of shame is already a prerequisite for noble friendship -- then this looks like a Catch 22 situation: one has to have the right kind of shame to get the right kind of shame.
There is no Catch 22 for the independent spiritual being, who seeks the Dhamma after developing right shame. In the suttas, there is a play on words about the meaning of 'Brahmin' to mean 'one who turns away' from evil. The original Brahmins had no religious teaching but naturally turned away from the evil in society & left society to live in secluded places.
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:22 am
This Catch 22 could be resolved in a similar way as Ven. Thanissaro suggests here:
There's a passage in the Canon where the Buddha says that a person who doesn't have a basic level of happiness and inner goodness simply cannot do goodness. Sounds like a Catch-22, but that's not the point. The point is we all have a certain amount of goodness in our minds, and so we should tap into that first.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ions2.html
Thanissaro appears to have contradicted the Buddha here. Thanissaro's idea of "we all have a certain about of goodness" sounds Mahayana.

I just finished reading this article of what appears to be deliberate lies to some, written by two ex-NATO military leaders, who give the impression of wanting to bring war, death & trauma to thousands of lives in a peaceful country: http://thehill.com/opinion/national-sec ... n-sanction This two people here give an impression of having no dhammic shame (hiri; conscience).
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:22 am
So, similarly, perhaps everyone already feels some shame to begin with, and even though it's not necessarily a consistently skillful shame, it may be good enough for a start (but that also seems to imply that progress on the Path isn't a straight line, one sure step after another, but more like two steps forward, one step back, or like walking around in circles, but where the centers of the circles can be ordered into a line of progression -- tough to accept this as progress).
I don't agree here. Most people I know do not have basic 'hiri' (individual conscience), which is why they do not embrace sila (moralty) but embrace liberalism, political correctness & the worldly ways of the world.
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:22 am
But how can one know which shame is which?
When I was a teenager, I followed the ways of the world, acting in certain ways. But as soon as I saw the deep harm of that kind of behaviour, I gave it up. Yet most people thought I was crazy to give up that kind of behaviour. This is example of natural 'hiri'. I know so many people doing the same old actions bringing the same old suffering to their lives & to the lives of others; over & over & over again. These people do not have basic hiri. Often minds without basic hiri adopt doctrines of victimhood or rationalize harming is just human nature. Too much craving, need or even trauma can obstruct shame.

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:39 am

Thank you all for your replies!
Venerable, thank you for the translation!

I have to go now, but will be back later or later tomorrow.

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:19 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:21 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:11 pm
I think that they are suggested by the structure of the sutta. A list is just a list; I've not yet felt the need for a method when dealing with lists, but you know of some they would be interesting reading.
MN 20, for example, clearly states how one should proceed: first put into action the first instruction on the list, but then, if that doesn't work, go with the second one, and so on.
On the other hand, AN 5.161 lists the brahmaviharas, but it says nothing about the order in which they are to be applied.
To say nothing of the complexity of applying the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path.
There is also the possibility that lists of injunctions or recommendations claim that a new situation will arise once one has performed the first; and then one performs the second relating to that new situation.

In the case of the Brahma-viharas, monastics have taught them in varying orders and also as stand-alone, so I'm not sure that the order is all that important. Personally, I would have to wait a long time before I became consummate in one of them so that I could move on to the others!

There are a couple of suttas in which it is taught that developing one factor leads to the ability to develop the next, but again we might spend a lot of time on Right View before making any other progress. And the graduated teaching (anupubbi-katha) seems to run counter to this.

You're right - it's an interesting topic in its own right.

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by befriend » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:47 pm

the Rahula sutta exhorts us to feel remorse even after an unskillful mental action, this is how I've been training recently and it is simple and effective in increasing well being.
nothing can destroy a man who has lived a pure life

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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:40 am

befriend wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:47 pm
the Rahula sutta exhorts us to feel remorse even after an unskillful mental action, this is how I've been training recently and it is simple and effective in increasing well being.
The Buddha never commends feeling remorseful, for remorse (kukkucca is a hindrance and always unskilful. The passage you allude to advises not remorse, but rather reflection on the nature of a mental action one has performed.
And when you, Rāhula, have done a deed with the mind you should reflect on this self-same deed of mind thus: ‘Was this deed that I did with the mind a deed of my mind that conduced to the harm of self and to the harm of others and to the harm of both? Was this an unskilled deed of mind, its yield anguish, its result anguish? If you, Rāhula, while reflecting thus, should find: ‘This deed that I did with the mind was a deed of my mind that conduced to the harm of self and to the harm of others and to the harm of both; this deed of mind was unskilled, its yield anguish, its result anguish’, such a deed of your mind, Rāhula, should be confessed, disclosed, declared to the Teacher or to intelligent Brahma-farers so that, confessed, disclosed and declared, it would induce restraint in the future. But if you, Rāhula, while reflecting thus, should find: ‘This deed that I did with the mind was a deed of my mind that conduced neither to the harm of self nor to the harm of others nor to the harm of both; it was a skilled deed of mind, its yield happy, its result happy’, because of it you, Rāhula, may abide in zest and rapture training yourself day and night in states that are skilled.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn61

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