AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

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chownah
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:41 am

Dhammanando,
I really can not relate to most of what is said in the illustrations of the terms in the Atthasālinī. Just for example the four kinds of hiri (consideration of birth, of age, of heroism, of wide experience.).....I have felt shame but I really don't think that it ever arose because of the causes given.

I am hesitant to say that this stuff is relative as I fear (ottappa?) it will cause discord and I'm sure you know how hard I try to avoid discord....but....the only way so far that I have seen to make sense of this stuff is to say that perhaps hiri is simply not living up to whatever standards one holds for ones self and that ottappa is simply not living up to whatever standards one thinks that other people hold for ones self.
Am I in the twilight zone with this thinking?
chownah
Last edited by chownah on Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sam Vara
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:14 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:07 am
samseva wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:25 am
What better translations have you found for the words hiri and ottappa?
I don't know of anything better than "moral shame" for hiri, while for ottappa I'm torn between "moral caution" and "regard for consequences".
One teacher I know has translated the pairing as "conscience and concern". It's from a retrospective album title by the folk group Peter Paul & Mary (one of whom is a Buddhist) and this particular teacher likes it because it is less off-putting for lay audiences who might jib at words like "shame", "dread", etc.
Ajahn Chah once summed up the entire Vinaya, the samana’s sīla, as one thing: to live with conscience and concern (hiri-ottappa).
http://ajahnsucitto.org/articles/the-graduated-path/

(As for myself, I appreciate a bit of fear and dread to motivate me!)

binocular
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:10 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:41 am
I am hesitant to say that this stuff is relative as I fear (ottappa?) it will cause discord and I'm sure you know how hard I try to avoid discord....but....the only way so far that I have seen to make sense of this stuff is to say that perhaps hiri is simply not living up to whatever standards one holds for ones self and that ottappa is simply not living up to whatever standards one thinks that other people hold for ones self.
Am I in the twilight zone with this thinking?
In that case, hiri and ottappa would be universally, invariably presernt in everyone, making the two concepts redundant.

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Dhammanando
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:21 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:41 am
I am hesitant to say that this stuff is relative as I fear (ottappa?) it will cause discord and I'm sure you know how hard I try to avoid discord....but....the only way so far that I have seen to make sense of this stuff is to say that perhaps hiri is simply not living up to whatever standards one holds for ones self and that ottappa is simply not living up to whatever standards one thinks that other people hold for ones self.
Am I in the twilight zone with this thinking?
Assuming that they are good standards, hiri and ottappa are the two mental factors that ensure that you do live up to them.

binocular
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:36 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:21 pm
Assuming that they are good standards, hiri and ottappa are the two mental factors that ensure that you do live up to them.
Good according to whose idea of goodness?

binocular
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:03 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:38 am
There are some further illustrations of the terms in the Atthasālinī:
/.../
Those illustrations are of a life that I know only from hearsay, books, and samurai films.

I sometimes buy a fancy French home design magazine. I wonder what kind of people live in those homes, what kind of lifestyles they have, how they go about their daily life. I find this interesting because it seems so vastly different than mine. Because this isn't just about wealth and what money can buy, there are categorical differences in the mentality of different socio-economic classes. And while some will hastily point out how it is precisely the elites that are the source of decadence in society, it's not the case that the whole of the elite is decadent.

I also find it interesting to think about monastics and their living spaces, for example. What kind of thinking goes into arranging one's living space this way? What was the person thinking as they placed the items in the careful way they are placed?

But beyond that, I have no contact with such lifestyles.

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samseva
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by samseva » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:13 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:07 am
[...]
Thank you, Bhante.
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:07 am
Yes. However, in some contexts (especially in Vinaya) kukkucca is also used for the concern that a morally earnest person experiences when considering whether something he is about to do, or is considering doing, is right or wrong. Hence the differing translations of the term: regret/remorse and worry.
By that, could it be that the possible reason why kukkucca is described in the Vinaya as occurring before is because shame (kukkucca) can arise due to only having considered doing the unwholesome action (but not having done it)?

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samseva
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by samseva » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:18 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:38 am
Yes, I think so. There are some further illustrations of the terms in the Atthasālinī:
In the last pair, hiri is that which abominates or shrinks from. It is a synonym for shame. Ottappa is [lit.] “glowing” [i.e., with nervous heat]. It is a synonym for agitation at evil. In the table of contents shame was stated to be the characteristic. In the following detailed discourse will be shown their mutual difference, [...]
Thank you for the excerpt, Bhante. It very much clarifies hiri and ottappa.

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Dhammanando
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:42 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:36 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:21 pm
Assuming that they are good standards, hiri and ottappa are the two mental factors that ensure that you do live up to them.
Good according to whose idea of goodness?
Bhagavaṃ mūlakā no dhammā, Bhagavaṃ nettikā, Bhagavaṃ paṭisaraṇā.
“Our teachings are rooted in the Blessed One, guided by the Blessed One, take recourse in the Blessed One.”

Goes without saying, eh?

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Dhammanando
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:00 am

samseva wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:13 pm
By that, could it be that the possible reason why kukkucca is described in the Vinaya as occurring before is because shame (kukkucca) can arise due to only having considered doing the unwholesome action (but not having done it)?
Yes. Or merely being presented with an opportunity:
Soon afterwards some female lay followers saw some monks and said to them, “Venerables, please give a teaching.”

“It’s not allowable for us to teach women.”

“Please just teach five or six sentences. Even with that much it’s possible to understand the Teaching.”

“It’s not allowable for us to teach women.” And being worried [about doing wrong] (kukkuccāyantā), they did not teach them.

Then those female lay followers complained and criticized them, “How can they not teach us when asked?”

The monks heard the complaints of those female lay followers, and they informed the Master. Soon afterwards the Master gave a teaching and addressed the monks, “Monks, I allow you to teach five or six sentences to a woman. And so, monks, this training rule should be recited thus:

‘If a monk gives a teaching of more than five or six sentences to a woman, he commits an offense entailing confession.’”

chownah
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:31 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:42 am
binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:36 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:21 pm
Assuming that they are good standards, hiri and ottappa are the two mental factors that ensure that you do live up to them.
Good according to whose idea of goodness?
Bhagavaṃ mūlakā no dhammā, Bhagavaṃ nettikā, Bhagavaṃ paṭisaraṇā.
“Our teachings are rooted in the Blessed One, guided by the Blessed One, take recourse in the Blessed One.”

Goes without saying, eh?
Do you think it is appropriate to consider the terms "right hiri" and "right ottappa" to be how the buddha used those terms?.....in other words hiri which is conducive to achieving the goal is "right hiri" etc.?....like in the 8FPath.
chownah

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Dhammanando
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:21 am

chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:31 am
Do you think it is appropriate to consider the terms "right hiri" and "right ottappa" to be how the buddha used those terms?.....in other words hiri which is conducive to achieving the goal is "right hiri" etc.?....like in the 8FPath.
Besides being "guardians of the world", hiri and ottappa also make up two of the seven powers (bala) upon which the eight path factors depend. For example, without them there would be no possibility of right speech, right action and right livelihood for there would be nothing to predispose one against their contraries.

binocular
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Re: AN 10.76: What do shame, remorse, and negligence refer to?

Post by binocular » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:52 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:42 am
binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:36 pm
Good according to whose idea of goodness?
Bhagavaṃ mūlakā no dhammā, Bhagavaṃ nettikā, Bhagavaṃ paṭisaraṇā.
“Our teachings are rooted in the Blessed One, guided by the Blessed One, take recourse in the Blessed One.”
Goes without saying, eh?
If only there wouldn't be so many ideas out there as to what exactly it is that the Blessed One taught ...
Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:21 am
Besides being "guardians of the world", hiri and ottappa also make up two of the seven powers (bala) upon which the eight path factors depend. For example, without them there would be no possibility of right speech, right action and right livelihood for there would be nothing to predispose one against their contraries.
For many peoplethen, the prospects of having hiri and ottappa and making progress on the Path are utterly hopeless.

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