Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
Posts: 7596
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by chownah » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:43 am

justindesilva wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:35 am
D1W1 wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:51 pm
Hi all,

I'm wondering is masturbation the same thing as breaking the first precept since the sperm is unable to live outside of human body for long time. Thanks.
From my references from texts Lord Buddha mentions sbout masterbation ( sukkhavissati ) in vinayapitaka (vin111.109) that it is not a mental theurspitic action .
Then vin 111.111 is said to have laid down as an offence for Buddhist monks and nuns.
The 1st precept only mentions about harming or killing sentient beings or beings with a nervous system. As the sperm is not a sentient being destroying of sperms can not be considered against the 1st precept.
If you have a sutta reference to beings with a nervous system I would be ever so glad to know it so I could go and take a look.
chownah

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by L.N. » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:30 pm

"Throttle" is a technical term for choking the chicken. If you are using two hands, there may be an intention to kill.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

justindesilva
Posts: 839
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by justindesilva » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:36 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:43 am
justindesilva wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:35 am
D1W1 wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:51 pm
Hi all,

I'm wondering is masturbation the same thing as breaking the first precept since the sperm is unable to live outside of human body for long time. Thanks.
From my references from texts Lord Buddha mentions sbout masterbation ( sukkhavissati ) in vinayapitaka (vin111.109) that it is not a mental theurspitic action .
Then vin 111.111 is said to have laid down as an offence for Buddhist monks and nuns.
The 1st precept only mentions about harming or killing sentient beings or beings with a nervous system. As the sperm is not a sentient being destroying of sperms can not be considered against the 1st precept.
If you have a sutta reference to beings with a nervous system I would be ever so glad to know it so I could go and take a look.
chownah
Hi Chownah
This explanation of beings with nervous system was heard by me at a Buddhist sermon by a bikku with a BSc in Microbiology " Pitiduwe Siridamma" about 10 years ago, but well remembered by me. However I shall try to find a relevant sutta from a bikku I am acquainted with.
It will be good for me too. Thank you.

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by L.N. » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:43 pm

If you are beating the bishop so much that you kill, this may constitute involuntary manslaughter. Since this is unintentional, it arguably is not counter to the training rule.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

D1W1
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:52 am

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by D1W1 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:59 pm

Thanks guys for the prompt reply, sorry for the late reply.
2600htz wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:07 pm
Hello:

In order to kill there has to be a "being".

(MN 38)

"Monks, the descent of the embryo occurs with the union of three things. There is the case where there is no union of the mother & father, the mother is not in her season, and a gandhabba [8] is not present, nor is there a descent of an embryo. There is the case where there is a union of the mother & father, and the mother is in her season, but a gandhabba is not present, nor is there a descent of an embryo. But when there is a union of the mother & father, the mother is in her season, and a gandhabba is present, then with this union of three things the descent of the embryo occurs.


If this conditions don´t come to be, there is no descent of the embryo. It doesn´t have volition,consciousness, mind-body process, feeling, etc.
Your sperm is life form (like plants), but not a being.


Regards.
What is gandhabba?
chownah wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:26 am
The first precept is about living beings and the suttas talk about a living being arising only after the sperm unites with the egg and descends into the womb.....so until this happens there is no living being an the first precept does not apply.
chownah
So sperm is just like a plant, there is life force but not a living being, as mentioned by someone previously? Which Sutta are you referring to?

D1W1
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:52 am

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by D1W1 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:02 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:36 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:43 am
justindesilva wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:35 am


From my references from texts Lord Buddha mentions sbout masterbation ( sukkhavissati ) in vinayapitaka (vin111.109) that it is not a mental theurspitic action .
Then vin 111.111 is said to have laid down as an offence for Buddhist monks and nuns.
The 1st precept only mentions about harming or killing sentient beings or beings with a nervous system. As the sperm is not a sentient being destroying of sperms can not be considered against the 1st precept.
If you have a sutta reference to beings with a nervous system I would be ever so glad to know it so I could go and take a look.
chownah
Hi Chownah
This explanation of beings with nervous system was heard by me at a Buddhist sermon by a bikku with a BSc in Microbiology " Pitiduwe Siridamma" about 10 years ago, but well remembered by me. However I shall try to find a relevant sutta from a bikku I am acquainted with.
It will be good for me too. Thank you.
But does a living being has to have nervous system?

JohnK
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by JohnK » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:12 pm

D1W1, I appreciate the depth of your compassion and concern.
I just finished the collection of Maha Boowa talks called Things as They Are; the last chapter is called Every Grain of Sand.
The very last paragraph is beautiful:
Those who have reached full release from conventional realities of every sort, you know, don’t assume themselves to be more special or worse than anyone else. For this reason, they don’t demean even the tiniest of creatures. They regard them all as friends in suffering, birth, ageing, illness, and death, because the Dhamma is something tender and gentle. Any mind in which it is found is completely gentle and can sympathize with every grain of sand, with living beings of every sort. There’s nothing rigid or unyielding about it. Only the defilements are rigid and unyielding. Proud. Conceited. Haughty and vain. Once there’s Dhamma, there are none of these things. There’s only the unvarying gentleness and tenderness of mercy and benevolence for the world at all times. [emphasis added]
https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Wri ... n0017.html
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:26 pm

The Chinese for over three thousand years realized that man can have several orgasms in a row without ejaculating and thereby increase longevity not feel the fatigue that follows the ejaculation.

The New York Times published a few years ago, the result of scientific research on the damage caused by the production of sperm in the body of man, concluding that "generate sperm is much more difficult than scientists thought. This requires a shift of resources that can harm the long-term men's health ''. And it makes sense, because throughout his life a man ejaculates on average five thousand times. Whereas each ejaculation contains from 50 to 250 million sperm, he ejaculates about a trillion unnecessary sperm! However, in reality, you need only ejaculate when you wanted to have a child.

Source: http://reginanavarro.blogosfera.uol.com ... -do-homem/

https://translate.google.com

Celibacy and Tantric Buddhism
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=24497


:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

form
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by form » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:25 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:43 am
justindesilva wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:35 am
D1W1 wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:51 pm
Hi all,

I'm wondering is masturbation the same thing as breaking the first precept since the sperm is unable to live outside of human body for long time. Thanks.
From my references from texts Lord Buddha mentions sbout masterbation ( sukkhavissati ) in vinayapitaka (vin111.109) that it is not a mental theurspitic action .
Then vin 111.111 is said to have laid down as an offence for Buddhist monks and nuns.
The 1st precept only mentions about harming or killing sentient beings or beings with a nervous system. As the sperm is not a sentient being destroying of sperms can not be considered against the 1st precept.
If you have a sutta reference to beings with a nervous system I would be ever so glad to know it so I could go and take a look.
chownah
I think he meant having consciousness.

Can a being higher than human like a deva be killed?

form
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by form » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:28 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:26 pm
The Chinese for over three thousand years realized that man can have several orgasms in a row without ejaculating and thereby increase longevity not feel the fatigue that follows the ejaculation.

The New York Times published a few years ago, the result of scientific research on the damage caused by the production of sperm in the body of man, concluding that "generate sperm is much more difficult than scientists thought. This requires a shift of resources that can harm the long-term men's health ''. And it makes sense, because throughout his life a man ejaculates on average five thousand times. Whereas each ejaculation contains from 50 to 250 million sperm, he ejaculates about a trillion unnecessary sperm! However, in reality, you need only ejaculate when you wanted to have a child.

Source: http://reginanavarro.blogosfera.uol.com ... -do-homem/

https://translate.google.com

Celibacy and Tantric Buddhism
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=24497


:namaste:
At the same time the strong attachment to the fantasies formed during such heightened pleasure will come back and haunt the person if he is not mindful of them.

form
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by form » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:32 pm

D1W1 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:02 pm
justindesilva wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:36 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:43 am

If you have a sutta reference to beings with a nervous system I would be ever so glad to know it so I could go and take a look.
chownah
Hi Chownah
This explanation of beings with nervous system was heard by me at a Buddhist sermon by a bikku with a BSc in Microbiology " Pitiduwe Siridamma" about 10 years ago, but well remembered by me. However I shall try to find a relevant sutta from a bikku I am acquainted with.
It will be good for me too. Thank you.
But does a living being has to have nervous system?
Depends on how u define a nervous system. Other beings will have a "nervous" system different from us. But they will have a impermanent but functioning system.

User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:43 pm

form wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:28 pm
Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:26 pm
The Chinese for over three thousand years realized that man can have several orgasms in a row without ejaculating and thereby increase longevity not feel the fatigue that follows the ejaculation.

The New York Times published a few years ago, the result of scientific research on the damage caused by the production of sperm in the body of man, concluding that "generate sperm is much more difficult than scientists thought. This requires a shift of resources that can harm the long-term men's health ''. And it makes sense, because throughout his life a man ejaculates on average five thousand times. Whereas each ejaculation contains from 50 to 250 million sperm, he ejaculates about a trillion unnecessary sperm! However, in reality, you need only ejaculate when you wanted to have a child.

Source: http://reginanavarro.blogosfera.uol.com ... -do-homem/

https://translate.google.com

Celibacy and Tantric Buddhism
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=24497


:namaste:
At the same time the strong attachment to the fantasies formed during such heightened pleasure will come back and haunt the person if he is not mindful of them.
it is true

Verse 186. Sensual Pleasures Never Satiated

Not by rain of golden coins
is found desires’ satiety,
desires are dukkha, of little joy,
thus a wise one understands.

Explanation: Insatiable are sensual desires. Sensual desires will not be satisfied even with a shower of gold. The wise knows that sensual pleasure bring but little satisfaction and much pain.

http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_buddha.htm

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

chownah
Posts: 7596
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by chownah » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:35 am

D1W1 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:59 pm
Thanks guys for the prompt reply, sorry for the late reply.
2600htz wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:07 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:26 am
The first precept is about living beings and the suttas talk about a living being arising only after the sperm unites with the egg and descends into the womb.....so until this happens there is no living being an the first precept does not apply.
chownah
So sperm is just like a plant, there is life force but not a living being, as mentioned by someone previously? Which Sutta are you referring to?
MN38....the same one which 2600hz brought.....there is another one which talks more explicitly about the descent into the womb but I can't remember....maybe you could search dhammawheel for it as I know it was referenced in another thread. If I remember which thread it was in I'll find it and bring it here.

chownah

form
Posts: 721
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by form » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:31 am

The rapture factor in jhana can be considered as an orgasm.

justindesilva
Posts: 839
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is masturbation the same thing as killing?

Post by justindesilva » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:11 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:35 am
D1W1 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:59 pm
Thanks guys for the prompt reply, sorry for the late reply.
2600htz wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:07 pm



So sperm is just like a plant, there is life force but not a living being, as mentioned by someone previously? Which Sutta are you referring to?
MN38....the same one which 2600hz brought.....there is another one which talks more explicitly about the descent into the womb but I can't remember....maybe you could search dhammawheel for it as I know it was referenced in another thread. If I remember which thread it was in I'll find it and bring it here.

chownah
I have located a past post on damma wheel which may be relevant : see
The dhammawheel; "The mechanism of gandabba" posted in Jan 2009.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Abiding, Baidu [Spider], Mr.SeanStewart and 93 guests