satipattana

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BlueLotus
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satipattana

Post by BlueLotus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:00 am

Why is satipattana important? Isn't it the anapanasati that the Buddha asked to follow?

DooDoot
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Re: satipattana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:15 am

Satipattana & anapanasati are the same thing. For example, the Anapanasati Sutta states the practise of anapanasati fulfils the satipatthana. However, they are taught somewhat differently in the Satipattana Sutta & Anapanasati Sutta. The teachings in the Anapanasati Sutta appears more advanced than the teaching in the Satipattana Sutta & each respective sutta was probably composed for two different purposes.

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nibbedhika
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Re: satipattana

Post by nibbedhika » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:53 am

The four satipatthana are fundamental in the Buddhist path, sometimes called "the only way" to enlightenment. The Magga Vagga in the Samyutta Nikaya has many suttas pointing out their role in the system, e.g. Kundaliya sutta.

Anapanasati is only one of the practical methods to establish the four satipatthana. Many other methods are found in the satipatthana sutta itself. I am aware of a trend declaring anapanasati as the main or only method taught by the Buddha, but don't subscribe to it.

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Re: satipattana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:55 am

A major difference, in the Anapanasati Sutta, is every experience & tetrad of satipatthana is done with knowing of breathing. For example, pleasant feelings (vedana) & states of mind (citta) are observed together with experiencing the breath. In other words, there is no need to drop the breath as a meditation object in order for whatever the heck comes up & reflect on whatever comes up as impermanent, suffering if clung to and not self. Regards

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Re: satipattana

Post by _anicca_ » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:38 am

When you practice anapanasati, you are simultaneously practicing satipatthana.

The mindfulness of breathing is mindfulness of the body and redirecting attention to the breath whenever a feeling or mental formation arises covers the other three.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

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BlueLotus
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Re: satipattana

Post by BlueLotus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:00 pm

Ok so how do I do the satipattana?

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nibbedhika
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Re: satipattana

Post by nibbedhika » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:29 pm

Besides the Satipatthana sutta and Anapanasati sutta, you can also consult the explanations of these suttas, for example the buddhanet books such as: Essentials of Insight Meditation Practice by Ven. Sujiva, Anapanasati - Mindfulness of Breathing by Ven. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and A Guide to Awareness by Somdet Phra Ñanasamvara. Or you may prefer practical instructions such as Practical Vipassana Exercises by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw. There are many more published books on Amazon etc. and you can follow what you prefer.

Try it out, and post further questions in the Vipassanā / Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvana sub-forum.

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Re: satipattana

Post by Spiny Norman » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:18 pm

nibbedhika wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:53 am
Anapanasati is only one of the practical methods to establish the four satipatthana. Many other methods are found in the satipatthana sutta itself. I am aware of a trend declaring anapanasati as the main or only method taught by the Buddha, but don't subscribe to it.
I tend to agree. Another difficulty is the lack of consensus on how the four tetrads of anapanasati should be practiced. The more traditional commentaries focus mainly on samadhi and jhana, while the more contemporary ones focus almost exclusively on satipatthana.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: satipattana

Post by Spiny Norman » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:30 pm

_anicca_ wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:38 am
The mindfulness of breathing is mindfulness of the body and redirecting attention to the breath whenever a feeling or mental formation arises covers the other three.
I don't see how. The second and third frames involve paying attention to those feelings and mental formations, not immediately switching attention away from them.
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BlueLotus
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Re: satipattana

Post by BlueLotus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:55 pm

nibbedhika wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:29 pm
Besides the Satipatthana sutta and Anapanasati sutta, you can also consult the explanations of these suttas, for example the buddhanet books such as: Essentials of Insight Meditation Practice by Ven. Sujiva, Anapanasati - Mindfulness of Breathing by Ven. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and A Guide to Awareness by Somdet Phra Ñanasamvara. Or you may prefer practical instructions such as Practical Vipassana Exercises by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw. There are many more published books on Amazon etc. and you can follow what you prefer.

Try it out, and post further questions in the Vipassanā / Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvana sub-forum.
I got hold of Mindfulness in Plain English by Henepola Gunaratana. Will that work?

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Re: satipattana

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:00 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:30 pm
_anicca_ wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:38 am
The mindfulness of breathing is mindfulness of the body and redirecting attention to the breath whenever a feeling or mental formation arises covers the other three.
I don't see how. The second and third frames involve paying attention to those feelings and mental formations, not immediately switching attention away from them.
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:55 am
A major difference, in the Anapanasati Sutta, is every experience & tetrad of satipatthana is done with knowing of breathing. For example, pleasant feelings (vedana) & states of mind (citta) are observed together with experiencing the breath. In other words, there is no need to drop the breath as a meditation object in order for whatever the heck comes up & reflect on whatever comes up as impermanent, suffering if clung to and not self. Regards
Doo Doot answered your question before you asked it, Spiny. Don't forget that the breath is the meditation object that ushers in concentration (one pointedness) which is the doorway for deeper meditative absorptions. Tranquility meditation (samatha) is still part of the foundation.

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Re: satipattana

Post by nibbedhika » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:10 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:55 pm
I got hold of Mindfulness in Plain English by Henepola Gunaratana. Will that work?
Yes, that is a very popular book on vipassana/anapanasati, and will last you a long time. You probably don't need more detail, but you can refer to the other stuff later if necessary.

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BlueLotus
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Re: satipattana

Post by BlueLotus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:53 pm

nibbedhika wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:10 pm
BlueLotus wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:55 pm
I got hold of Mindfulness in Plain English by Henepola Gunaratana. Will that work?
Yes, that is a very popular book on vipassana/anapanasati, and will last you a long time. You probably don't need more detail, but you can refer to the other stuff later if necessary.
Okay. Thank you so much. I will start with this as it seems kinda simple.

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Re: satipattana

Post by BlueLotus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:58 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:55 am
A major difference, in the Anapanasati Sutta, is every experience & tetrad of satipatthana is done with knowing of breathing. For example, pleasant feelings (vedana) & states of mind (citta) are observed together with experiencing the breath. In other words, there is no need to drop the breath as a meditation object in order for whatever the heck comes up & reflect on whatever comes up as impermanent, suffering if clung to and not self. Regards
No no the question I have is not whether I drop the breath but how to practice satipattana while focusing on the breath

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Re: satipattana

Post by DooDoot » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:17 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:58 pm
No no the question I have is not whether I drop the breath but how to practice satipattana while focusing on the breath
At least the instructions in the Anapanasati Sutta seem to literally say to keep watching (and calming) the breath until rapture arises. When rapture arises, the 2nd satipatthana (tetrad) begins, where rapture (a pleasant feeling) is observed together with the breathing. Then when rapture is calmed, the 3rd satipatthana (tetrad) begins, where the mind & the breathing are watched together. Therefore, it sounds like you have to keep watching the breathing until rapture arises. If rapture never arises then you only practise one satipatthana.
FIRST TETRAD
(1) While breathing in long he fully comprehends: I breathe in long. While breathing out long he fully comprehends: I breathe out long. 16

(2) While breathing in short he fully comprehends: I breathe in short. While breathing out short he fully comprehends: I breathe out short.

(3) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing all bodies I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing all bodies I shall breathe out.17

(4) He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner I shall breathe out.18

SECOND TETRAD

(5) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti (rapture) I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti I shall breathe out.

(6) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing sukha (happiness) I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing sukha I shall breathe out.

(7) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.19

(8) He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out. 20

THIRD TETRAD

(9) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe out. 21

(10) He trains himself: gladdening the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: gladdening the mind I shall breathe out. 22

(11) He trains himself: concentrating the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: concentrating the mind I shall breathe out.23

(12) He trains himself: liberating the mind I shall breathe in.

FOURTH TETRAD

(13) He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out. 25

(14) He trains himself; constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe out. 26

(15) He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe out. 27

(16) He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe out. 28

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikk ... .htm/quote]

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Re: satipattana

Post by DooDoot » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:36 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:58 pm
No no the question I have is not whether I drop the breath but how to practice satipattana while focusing on the breath
Also, how to practice satipattana while focusing on the breath is as follows:
.... strives to burn up defile­ments, comprehends readily (according to Right View) and is mindful in order to abandon all liking and disliking....

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikk ... athing.htm
Therefore, it sounds like how to practice satipattana while focusing on the breath is to focus on the breathing without liking & disliking; without greed, hatred & delusion, which includes without clinging to the breathing as 'self', according to Right View.
In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, not clinging to anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

chownah
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Re: satipattana

Post by chownah » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:19 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:17 am
BlueLotus wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:58 pm
No no the question I have is not whether I drop the breath but how to practice satipattana while focusing on the breath
At least the instructions in the Anapanasati Sutta seem to literally say to keep watching (and calming) the breath until rapture arises. When rapture arises, the 2nd satipatthana (tetrad) begins, where rapture (a pleasant feeling) is observed together with the breathing. Then when rapture is calmed, the 3rd satipatthana (tetrad) begins, where the mind & the breathing are watched together. Therefore, it sounds like you have to keep watching the breathing until rapture arises. If rapture never arises then you only practise one satipatthana.
FIRST TETRAD
(1) While breathing in long he fully comprehends: I breathe in long. While breathing out long he fully comprehends: I breathe out long. 16

(2) While breathing in short he fully comprehends: I breathe in short. While breathing out short he fully comprehends: I breathe out short.

(3) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing all bodies I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing all bodies I shall breathe out.17

(4) He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the body-conditioner I shall breathe out.18

SECOND TETRAD

(5) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti (rapture) I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti I shall breathe out.

(6) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing sukha (happiness) I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing sukha I shall breathe out.

(7) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.19

(8) He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out. 20

THIRD TETRAD

(9) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind I shall breathe out. 21

(10) He trains himself: gladdening the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: gladdening the mind I shall breathe out. 22

(11) He trains himself: concentrating the mind I shall breathe in. He trains himself: concentrating the mind I shall breathe out.23

(12) He trains himself: liberating the mind I shall breathe in.

FOURTH TETRAD

(13) He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. He trains himself; constantly contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out. 25

(14) He trains himself; constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating fading away I shall breathe out. 26

(15) He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating quenching I shall breathe out. 27

(16) He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe in. He trains himself: constantly contemplating tossing back I shall breathe out. 28

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikk ... athing.htm
I fixed the link at the bottom.
chownah

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Re: satipattana

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:04 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:00 am
Why is satipattana important? Isn't it the anapanasati that the Buddha asked to follow?
Satipatthana is important because it fulfils many of the wings to awakening in and of itself.
Both are advised, However, as some Bhikkhu's (Ajahn Sujato, Bhikkhu Analayo) have argued the Satipatthana has undergone an expansion over time, and I find this compelling. I would recommend both of Bhikkhu Analayo's books on the subject of Satipatthana as his arguments are more convincing/practicable.

Satipatthana the direct path to realisation. https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... t-path.pdf

Perspectives of Satipatthana. https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... ctives.pdf

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