Integrity and admission of faults

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Invokingvajras
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Integrity and admission of faults

Post by Invokingvajras »

I've been struggling with ways in which I can apply a particular sutta into my life:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

This would seem to suggest that whatever wrongs we have knowingly committed in this life ought to be brought to light. Let's say that for a time, one associated with evil companions and was given over to unwholesome ways and later realized this error.

Would it be of benefit to publicize one's own moral transgressions? I would imagine, depending on the severity of one's wrong doing, that this would cause a bit of harm to one's reputation, career prospects, etc. I do believe the Dhamma is of highest authority, but would like some guidance on how to go about it. Many thanks.
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chownah
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Re: Integrity and admission of faults

Post by chownah »

Two thoughts:
Having inappropriate sex (for example) is not your bad point....perhaps being easily overwhelmed by lust is your bad point.

Things you did in the past might not have anything at all to do with what you are today.

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L.N.
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Re: Integrity and admission of faults

Post by L.N. »

Invokingvajras wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:30 pmThis would seem to suggest that whatever wrongs we have knowingly committed in this life ought to be brought to light. ...
To quote the Sutta for reference, from Access to Insight:
"Monks, a person endowed with these four qualities can be known as 'a person of no integrity.' Which four?

"There is the case where a person of no integrity, when unasked, reveals another person's bad points, to say nothing of when asked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of another person's bad points in full & in detail, without omission, without holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of no integrity.'

"Then again, a person of no integrity, when asked, does not reveal another person's good points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of another person's good points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of no integrity.'

"Then again, a person of no integrity, when asked, does not reveal his own bad points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own bad points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of no integrity.'

"Then again, a person of no integrity, when unasked, reveals his own good points, to say nothing of when asked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own good points in full & in detail, without omissions, without holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of no integrity.'

"Monks, a person endowed with these four qualities can be known as 'a person of no integrity.'

"Now, a person endowed with these four qualities can be known as 'a person of integrity.' Which four?

"There is the case where a person of integrity, when asked, does not reveal another person's bad points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of another person's bad points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of integrity.'

"Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals another person's good points, to say nothing of when asked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of another person's good points in full & in detail, without omissions, without holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of integrity.'

"Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals his own bad points, to say nothing of when asked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own bad points in full & in detail, without omissions, without holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of integrity.'

"Then again, a person of integrity, when asked, does not reveal his own good points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own good points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of integrity.'

"Monks, a person endowed with these four qualities can be known as 'a person of integrity.'"
I don't think this suggests an all-inclusive instruction to publicize whatever wrongs one might have committed. Rather, I read this to encourage taking personal responsibility. In another Topic, I referred to this practice as "sweeping my side of the street." In engaging with another, our first words can be to acknowledge what is true in another's criticism of us, even if some or all of what was said is untrue. For example, if someone says, "You always start arguments," we might feel impulsively affronted by this. But our first words can be acknowledging the kernel of truth, such as by saying: "I acknowledge that what I said has started this argument." Step two can be to show regard for the other person. "I understand how this can be annoying." Step three can be to make amends. "I will try in the future to avoid doing this."

Once this is done, you have "swept your side of the street," so to speak. Then, you can respectfully make your point, if appropriate.

I think the Sutta boils down to, be kind to yourself and others. Be kind to yourself by giving yourself the opportunity to recognize the truth, good or bad, about your actions. Be kind to others by respecting their perspective and speaking truth in the right time and manner. Sometimes it's hard to do, and we all can make mistakes. Best wishes.
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binocular
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Re: Integrity and admission of faults

Post by binocular »

Invokingvajras wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:30 pm I've been struggling with ways in which I can apply a particular sutta into my life:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I contrast and complement the instructions in the above sutta with the other instructions on Right Speech:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/ptf ... index.html
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dharmacorps
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Re: Integrity and admission of faults

Post by dharmacorps »

The key part of this Sutta I notice is "When asked". Nobody is advising you get out a loudspeaking to confess one's faults.
chownah
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Re: Integrity and admission of faults

Post by chownah »

dharmacorps wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:37 pm The key part of this Sutta I notice is "When asked". Nobody is advising you get out a loudspeaking to confess one's faults.
....but the sutta also talks about ""Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals his own bad points"
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L.N.
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Re: Integrity and admission of faults

Post by L.N. »

chownah wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:16 am....but the sutta also talks about ""Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals his own bad points"
chownah
This may refer to the practice of taking personal responsibility. We acknowledge our role in what has transpired, which can be uncomfortable, especially if we think the other person is at greater fault. Still, if we are secure enough, we can acknowledge the kernel of truth. But I don't think the Sutta it is intended to encourage broadcasting one's bad points for just for the sake of doing so.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
chownah
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Re: Integrity and admission of faults

Post by chownah »

L.N. wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:59 am
chownah wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:16 am....but the sutta also talks about ""Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals his own bad points"
chownah
This may refer to the practice of taking personal responsibility. We acknowledge our role in what has transpired, which can be uncomfortable, especially if we think the other person is at greater fault. Still, if we are secure enough, we can acknowledge the kernel of truth. But I don't think the Sutta it is intended to encourage broadcasting one's bad points for just for the sake of doing so.
I was just pointing out to:
dharmacorps wrote:
The key part of this Sutta I notice is "When asked".
...that the sutta also talks about when unasked.
What I think the unasked part means is that if one has for example made a false accusation then if one discovers that the accusation was false one should go to whoever heard that accusation and say that you have discovered that the accusation was false and apologize for have made the false accusation.....etc.
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L.N.
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Re: Integrity and admission of faults

Post by L.N. »

chownah wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:41 amWhat I think the unasked part means is that if one has for example made a false accusation then if one discovers that the accusation was false one should go to whoever heard that accusation and say that you have discovered that the accusation was false and apologize for have made the false accusation.....etc.
chownah
Yes, taking personal responsibility.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
dharmacorps
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Re: Integrity and admission of faults

Post by dharmacorps »

Sorry about that, I should have reviewed the Sutta more carefully. Now that is a direct lesson to me in revealing my own faults :)
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Re: Integrity and admission of faults

Post by Invokingvajras »

I see. I ask because I was recently involved with people who might in the future seek to destroy my reputation. I was careless and used little discernment thinking I was doing something good by getting involved with Antifa/black bloc demonstrations, and it soon escalated into discovering the Liberal Art schools' drug culture and providing what I believed to be my then-romantic partner with explicit images of myself. Ignorance and anger built up in my character and it resulted in a pretty hard fall. In short, it's been a wild ride.

On the plus side, I think I've gotten a better idea of what a "pandaka" is.
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