Animal Rebirth

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Ydnan321
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Animal Rebirth

Post by Ydnan321 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:07 pm

There’s a notable Chinese monk who claimed that animals are fragments of people, i.e. one human can reborn as multiple animals, and vice versa, multiple animals merge to reborn as one human. He said that animals are stupid due to this ‘soul’ split phenomenon. This does not sound right though I could not prove it to be contradicting to Buddhism’s teaching. Anyone knows scripture references that specifically state that x number of human shall be born as x number of animals and vice versa, no more no less. Or references that explicitly deny such claim of multiplicity.

Thanks much,

YN

2600htz
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by 2600htz » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:21 pm

Hello:


(MN 57)

"Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious life I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Punna, if his dog duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of dogs; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."

(AN 5.57)

"all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and live dependent on their actions. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.'"

You see, the dog ascetic was going to be reborn as a dog because of his actions.
And when he acted like a dog, it was also because of his actions and his views, not because of something else.

Regards.

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DNS
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by DNS » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:54 pm

I believe Hinduism has a concept like that of a soul splitting into many different beings. It doesn't sound compatible with Buddhism, because that concept would imply a soul that could be split. In Buddhism it is some sort of individual mind stream, no-self or not-self that is reborn, not something that could be split.

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cappuccino
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:43 pm

The five precepts are human standards.

Acting less than that, you become less than that.
Buddha has said, "As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers."

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Dhammanando
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:46 pm

Ydnan321 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:07 pm
There’s a notable Chinese monk who claimed that animals are fragments of people, i.e. one human can reborn as multiple animals, and vice versa, multiple animals merge to reborn as one human. He said that animals are stupid due to this ‘soul’ split phenomenon. This does not sound right though I could not prove it to be contradicting to Buddhism’s teaching. Anyone knows scripture references that specifically state that x number of human shall be born as x number of animals and vice versa, no more no less. Or references that explicitly deny such claim of multiplicity.
In Indian Buddhism it wasn't necessary to assert unitarity because nobody was ever foolish enough to posit anything else. To claim that a unitary being becomes legion or that a legion of beings becomes unitary would render even the most elementary points of doctrine (e.g., ownership of kamma) unintelligible.
attanā va kataṁ pāpaṁ, attanā saṅkilissati,
attanā akataṁ pāpaṁ, attanā va visujjhati,
suddhī asuddhī paccattaṁ, nāñño aññaṁ visodhaye.


By oneself alone is a wicked deed done, by oneself is one defiled,
by oneself is a wicked deed left undone, by oneself alone is one purified,
purity and impurity come from oneself, (for) no one can purify another.
(Dhp. 165)

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BlueLotus
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by BlueLotus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:04 am

2600htz wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:21 pm


"Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs.
LOL.... I believe the Buddha also said that you create your reality with the way you direct your thoughts. Thoughts turn into form. That is how the entire planet was born.

form
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by form » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:13 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:04 am
2600htz wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:21 pm


"Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs.
LOL.... I believe the Buddha also said that you create your reality with the way you direct your thoughts. Thoughts turn into form. That is how the entire planet was born.
It should be. There must be interlinks.

Ydnan321
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by Ydnan321 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:04 pm

Sorry, I’m still stuck on this, would be grateful if anyone could provide explanation stating why multiplicity of animal rebirths is not possible using scripture or well-known master’s accounts/references? Links would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

YN

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cappuccino
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by cappuccino » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:56 am

Malunkyaputta, if anyone were to say, 'I won't live the holy life under the Blessed One as long as he does not declare to me X … the man would die and those things would still remain undeclared by the Tathagata.

And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life.

Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta
Buddha has said, "As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers."

chownah
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by chownah » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:39 am

A human shares most of its dna with other animals......you could then say that humans are made up of animals I guess...don't know for sure..........but what does it mean?
chownah

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Dhammanando
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:00 am

Ydnan321 wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:04 pm
Sorry, I’m still stuck on this, would be grateful if anyone could provide explanation stating why multiplicity of animal rebirths is not possible using scripture or well-known master’s accounts/references? Links would be greatly appreciated.
In Dhammapada 37 a citta is said to be "singly-occurring". From this it follows that a mental continuum cannot throw out branches. One citta is followed by another citta, not by two simultaneously arising cittas.

form
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by form » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am

No stories of rebirth has even used the term aliens. Only from people like Billy Meier use terms like more advanced civilisation from outer space coming to teach humans. Not that i believe anything he said.

justindesilva
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by justindesilva » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:01 am

form wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am
No stories of rebirth has even used the term aliens. Only from people like Billy Meier use terms like more advanced civilisation from outer space coming to teach humans. Not that i believe anything he said.
When Prince SIddartha left the lay life he left his faithful horse Kanthaka at the river Neranjana. Here Kanthaka the horse is said to have died with a broken heart and was said to be borne in a heaven. When Lord budda attained enlightment this former Kanthaka and now a divine being had visited Lord budda several times to understand marga phala and has attained nirvana later.
This story reveals one thing which is that at times animals too are reborn in higher spheres and there are other similar stories too.

form
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by form » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:48 am

justindesilva wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:01 am
form wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am
No stories of rebirth has even used the term aliens. Only from people like Billy Meier use terms like more advanced civilisation from outer space coming to teach humans. Not that i believe anything he said.
When Prince SIddartha left the lay life he left his faithful horse Kanthaka at the river Neranjana. Here Kanthaka the horse is said to have died with a broken heart and was said to be borne in a heaven. When Lord budda attained enlightment this former Kanthaka and now a divine being had visited Lord budda several times to understand marga phala and has attained nirvana later.
This story reveals one thing which is that at times animals too are reborn in higher spheres and there are other similar stories too.
That i know. I remember there was a smiling pig story in a sutta. But if i am not wrong, I think animals do not go beyond desire realm.

form
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by form » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:55 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:39 am
A human shares most of its dna with other animals......you could then say that humans are made up of animals I guess...don't know for sure..........but what does it mean?
chownah
This dna thing is very scientific stuff. But it will be impossible to directly relate it with rebirth mechanism in the sutta as the biology knowledge between the two eras is 25 thousands years apart.

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Kusala
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by Kusala » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:01 am

Ydnan321 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:07 pm
There’s a notable Chinese monk who claimed that animals are fragments of people, i.e. one human can reborn as multiple animals, and vice versa, multiple animals merge to reborn as one human. He said that animals are stupid due to this ‘soul’ split phenomenon. This does not sound right though I could not prove it to be contradicting to Buddhism’s teaching. Anyone knows scripture references that specifically state that x number of human shall be born as x number of animals and vice versa, no more no less. Or references that explicitly deny such claim of multiplicity.

Thanks much,

YN
This video of a Ukrainian girl raised by a pack of dogs reminded of a sutta( I can't recall the exact sutta) where a monk was behaving like his former animal self. I think he was a monkey...

Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

form
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by form » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:40 pm

Kusala wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:01 am
Ydnan321 wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:07 pm
There’s a notable Chinese monk who claimed that animals are fragments of people, i.e. one human can reborn as multiple animals, and vice versa, multiple animals merge to reborn as one human. He said that animals are stupid due to this ‘soul’ split phenomenon. This does not sound right though I could not prove it to be contradicting to Buddhism’s teaching. Anyone knows scripture references that specifically state that x number of human shall be born as x number of animals and vice versa, no more no less. Or references that explicitly deny such claim of multiplicity.

Thanks much,

YN
In the sutta, the buddha should be teaching one to one consciousness migration after death. He mentioned, it is hard for those in lower realm to become a human again. On the occasion when it happened, they were borned low in status and ugly, he cited the example of born as a hunter. This case to me could imply that the killing habits and the appearance of being an animal left traces on the continuation of being.

This video of a Ukrainian girl raised by a pack of dogs reminded of a sutta( I can't recall the exact sutta) where a monk was behaving like his former animal self. I think he was a monkey...


justindesilva
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by justindesilva » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:53 pm

form wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:48 am
justindesilva wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:01 am
form wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:26 am
No stories of rebirth has even used the term aliens. Only from people like Billy Meier use terms like more advanced civilisation from outer space coming to teach humans. Not that i believe anything he said.
When Prince SIddartha left the lay life he left his faithful horse Kanthaka at the river Neranjana. Here Kanthaka the horse is said to have died with a broken heart and was said to be borne in a heaven. When Lord budda attained enlightment this former Kanthaka and now a divine being had visited Lord budda several times to understand marga phala and has attained nirvana later.
This story reveals one thing which is that at times animals too are reborn in higher spheres and there are other similar stories too.
That i know. I remember there was a smiling pig story in a sutta. But if i am not wrong, I think animals do not go beyond desire realm.
Hi Form,
May I indicate that Kanthaka ( the horse) is said to have been borne on this earth from a divine state to serve Siddartha to help his life to be enlightened later.
It indicates that some animals are here on this earth back from higher realms spending their karma or for another purpose. There by animals can be reborn on a better realm followed by their past karma.
Even the monkey Hanuman from Hinduism is a deity for Hindu folks.
This is my mere reasoning and is subject to criticism.

form
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by form » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:23 pm

Sure. Just wondering if there is any account that any animal can go beyond desire realm in their next rebirth?

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Dhammanando
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Re: Animal Rebirth

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:22 am

form wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:23 pm
Sure. Just wondering if there is any account that any animal can go beyond desire realm in their next rebirth?
It's a theoretical possibility but there are no narratives of it happening. For it to happen the animal would need to have developed jhāna in a former life as a human. Then, at the end of its animal life, it would be necessary that there be no weighty kamma or death-proximate kamma or habitual kamma capable of ripening at that time. Such circumstances would provide the occasion for the ripening of the jhānic reserve kamma. In practice I think this would only be likely to happen if the animal was very short-lived; otherwise it's almost certain that it will have created habitual kamma and that this will take priority.

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