Eating in a restaurant part 2

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binocular
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:10 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:04 pm
Also, feeling a feeling and thinking about its arising is important and we should arouse our discernment and direct it to this task.....but this is not in conflict with also directing our discernment to seeing anatta.
I don't understand what you mean by this.
I think that somehow some people here think I am advising going to your average person on the street who is completely unaware of buddhism much less the anatta doctrine and advising them that their feelings are unimportant and just forget them.
No, I'm trying to figure out what you mean, so I've put forward several questions and the Smith and Jones dialogue, in an effort to zoom in and to give an opportunity to point out all (contra)distinctions.

I just find that you're not being detailed enough, and I have said that I don't understand what you mean, and I have asked for further explanations, and given prompts for further explanations.
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:25 am
Does anyone here really think that it is possible to cogently "sketch out" anatta and its implications to morality?
I do, and I expect you to do so, since you said:
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:47 am
if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc.
There is a very brief sketch called "The Four Noble Truths".
There is an expanded sketch called "The Eightfold Noble Path".
There is a detailed sketch called the "Tipitaka".
This is simply too general. Since you started this thread and put forward a claim, I expect you will be able to talk about it with your own words, in detail.

:coffee:

chownah
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:10 pm
chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:04 pm
Also, feeling a feeling and thinking about its arising is important and we should arouse our discernment and direct it to this task.....but this is not in conflict with also directing our discernment to seeing anatta.
I don't understand what you mean by this.
What I am saying is that for example if someone feels like they are being a hypocrite then they would benefit by examining how this feeling arose and what were the circumstances which led to its arising. In other words, one should not dismiss the feeling...one should study it...one thing to study is whether there was an error in moral judgement which gave rise to it. In addition to this one should endeavor to study the feeling the way the buddha talks about feelings and most notably I have been talking about how the buddha talks about feelings (any feeling whatsoever) with respect to anatta (not self, not mine, etc.) This is not an either/or situation. One can benefit if one does both.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:51 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:10 pm

I just find that you're not being detailed enough, and I have said that I don't understand what you mean, and I have asked for further explanations, and given prompts for further explanations.
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:25 am
Does anyone here really think that it is possible to cogently "sketch out" anatta and its implications to morality?
I do, and I expect you to do so, since you said:
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:47 am
if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc.
There is a very brief sketch called "The Four Noble Truths".
There is an expanded sketch called "The Eightfold Noble Path".
There is a detailed sketch called the "Tipitaka".
This is simply too general. Since you started this thread and put forward a claim, I expect you will be able to talk about it with your own words, in detail.

:coffee:
Words only go so far. If you want words go read the buddha's words....they're better than anything I can come up with I'm sure. Even the buddha's words only go so far. Progress doesn't come from words....it comes from effort directing discernment towards experience. I have spent most of my life dedicated to discerning the way things really are. Whatever I might have learned about the way things really are did not come from a sketch. I can not provide a sketch.

I put forward the claim:
if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc.

I just took this from the suttas which I have brought and shown you twice. The buddha taught that any feeling whatsoever should be viewed as not mine, not self, etc. I'm really wondering why you are asking me. Are you doubting what the buddha taught?...and think that I'm a better source of wisdom?
chownah

binocular
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:55 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 pm
What I am saying is that for example if someone feels like they are being a hypocrite then they would benefit by examining how this feeling arose and what were the circumstances which led to its arising. In other words, one should not dismiss the feeling...one should study it...one thing to study is whether there was an error in moral judgement which gave rise to it.
Okay.
I wouldn't call this an analysis of feelings per se, but an analysis of perceptions or assessments. The feeling here is just a prompt.

For example, in order to increase productivity, one might devise a new work schedule. Then, a while after starting with the new schedule, one might feel more productive. But unless one actually has a system in place to accurately record and measure productivity, how can one possibly know that one is in fact being more productive? One might feel more productive, and if one's work consists of producing easily countable units of product, then it may be easy enough to have a definitive answer as to whether one is more productive or not. But if one's work is very versatile (as is the case for many people), how can one know whether one is being more productive or not? One might very well feel more productive, but without actually being more productive. Feelings can be very misleading here.
In addition to this one should endeavor to study the feeling the way the buddha talks about feelings and most notably I have been talking about how the buddha talks about feelings (any feeling whatsoever) with respect to anatta (not self, not mine, etc.) This is not an either/or situation. One can benefit if one does both.
I think people who are serious about their work do this already, to some extent. It's part of emotional intelligence.

binocular
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:58 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:51 pm
Words only go so far. If you want words go read the buddha's words....they're better than anything I can come up with I'm sure. Even the buddha's words only go so far. Progress doesn't come from words....it comes from effort directing discernment towards experience. I have spent most of my life dedicated to discerning the way things really are. Whatever I might have learned about the way things really are did not come from a sketch. I can not provide a sketch.
/.../
I just took this from the suttas which I have brought and shown you twice. The buddha taught that any feeling whatsoever should be viewed as not mine, not self, etc. I'm really wondering why you are asking me. Are you doubting what the buddha taught?...and think that I'm a better source of wisdom?
I want to see how masterfully you can handle the material.
:tongue:

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L.N.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by L.N. » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:46 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:23 am
Perhaps not, but going "straight to anatta" with a feeling of remorse could well have that effect - effectively dismissing the remorse, rather than examining why it has arisen, and if one has done harm.
It would have that effect only if one understands anatta incorrectly.
It's like trying to go straight to panna, without the foundation of sila.
Only if one understands panna and sila incorrectly.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by Spiny Norman » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:25 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 pm
What I am saying is that for example if someone feels like they are being a hypocrite then they would benefit by examining how this feeling arose and what were the circumstances which led to its arising. In other words, one should not dismiss the feeling...one should study it...one thing to study is whether there was an error in moral judgement which gave rise to it. In addition to this one should endeavor to study the feeling the way the buddha talks about feelings and most notably I have been talking about how the buddha talks about feelings (any feeling whatsoever) with respect to anatta (not self, not mine, etc.) This is not an either/or situation. One can benefit if one does both.
chownah
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by Spiny Norman » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:26 am

L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:46 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:23 am
Perhaps not, but going "straight to anatta" with a feeling of remorse could well have that effect - effectively dismissing the remorse, rather than examining why it has arisen, and if one has done harm.
It would have that effect only if one understands anatta incorrectly.
It's like trying to go straight to panna, without the foundation of sila.
Only if one understands panna and sila incorrectly.
So please explain what you think the correct understanding is here, practically speaking, using the example of a feeling of remorse.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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L.N.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:32 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:26 am
So please explain what you think the correct understanding is here, practically speaking, using the example of a feeling of remorse.
This has been repeatedly explained.

A further example: Jack takes Jill's candy away for no reason. Jill cries. Jack feels remorse.

(1) Helpful reaction by Jack: He feels remorse, gives back the candy, and resolves not to steal in the future.

(2) Unhelpful reaction: He feels remorse, thinks about the remorse constantly, ties the remorse to his other prior bad conduct, and as a result of this cycle of thinking, feels more remorse, and says to himself, "you're a thief, you're a thief, you're a rotten thief."

In the instance of (2) an anatta instruction may be compassionate, depending upon the person, so long as it does not interfere with (1) as described above.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by Spiny Norman » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:39 pm

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:32 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:26 am
So please explain what you think the correct understanding is here, practically speaking, using the example of a feeling of remorse.
This has been repeatedly explained.

A further example: Jack takes Jill's candy away for no reason. Jill cries. Jack feels remorse.

(1) Helpful reaction by Jack: He feels remorse, gives back the candy, and resolves not to steal in the future.

(2) Unhelpful reaction: He feels remorse, thinks about the remorse constantly, ties the remorse to his other prior bad conduct, and as a result of this cycle of thinking, feels more remorse, and says to himself, "you're a thief, you're a thief, you're a rotten thief."

In the instance of (2) an anatta instruction may be compassionate, depending upon the person, so long as it does not interfere with (1) as described above.
I think a teaching on the hindrances might be more appropriate for (2).
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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binocular
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:55 pm

L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:32 pm
A further example: Jack takes Jill's candy away for no reason.
For no reason?? How can that be?

chownah
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:39 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:55 pm
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:32 pm
A further example: Jack takes Jill's candy away for no reason.
For no reason?? How can that be?
It is a bit odd to say that it was for no reason....especially since later he implies that jack thinks he was involved in some stealing. Do you think he stole the candy while they were ascending or when they were descending the hill?....did he hide the candy in the pail which was supposed to be full of water but which quite obviously had lost its contents during the tumbling?....an jack broke his crown so do you think we really should be discussing the concept of instant karrrrma instead?
Do you think that this bit of oddity is central to the idea that l.n. is trying to get across? I can't see that it makes any difference at all and it seems like it is just a stylistic element of the presentation so for me it does seem that you are ignoring the meaning being imparted.....you haven't even mentioned the substance of what it is he is talking about.
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L.N.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 am

It's my hypo that I wrote in approximately 30 seconds in response to a request, so yeah, Jack was a beastie boy who stole Jill's candy for just no dang reason at all. A complete whim. That only added to his remorse.

Any other hypotheticals requested?
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:29 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:39 am
Do you think that this bit of oddity is central to the idea that l.n. is trying to get across?
I don't think it's an oddity and I think it's important, because I think that whether one will feel remorse or not depends on why one did the offensive act to begin with.
If someone does something "for no reason", then it's not clear how such a person can feel remorse for such an action.
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 am
It's my hypo that I wrote in approximately 30 seconds in response to a request, so yeah, Jack was a beastie boy who stole Jill's candy for just no dang reason at all. A complete whim. That only added to his remorse.
Then those are reasons.

chownah
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:19 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:55 pm
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:32 pm
A further example: Jack takes Jill's candy away for no reason.
For no reason?? How can that be?
Post as ye will. I'm just trying to show why you get to the "sigh". It matters not to me if you ask questions without any nuance and no detail, no other explanation or outlook. The result will just often bring you a *sigh*.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:34 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:29 am
chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:39 am
Do you think that this bit of oddity is central to the idea that l.n. is trying to get across?
I don't think it's an oddity and I think it's important, because I think that whether one will feel remorse or not depends on why one did the offensive act to begin with.
If someone does something "for no reason", then it's not clear how such a person can feel remorse for such an action.
That is the oddity.....while no reason is given for jack's theft it is clearly stated that he has remorse. The point has to do with two ways to react to the feeing of remorse....it is not about why jack feels remorse. Maybe jack is a compulsive thief and does it for no apparent reason....but then feels remorse later.....or maybe jack had a blackout and committed the theft without knowledge of doing it until later at which time he felt remorse. Maybe jill dropped the candy and jack found it and ate it and realized later that he had taken something that wasn't freely given so felt remorse. It could be any of those things but it has nothing to do with the point being made which is about two ways one can deal with remorse.

Does that clarify this story for you?
chownah

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:36 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:29 am
chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:39 am
Do you think that this bit of oddity is central to the idea that l.n. is trying to get across?
I don't think it's an oddity and I think it's important, because I think that whether one will feel remorse or not depends on why one did the offensive act to begin with.
If someone does something "for no reason", then it's not clear how such a person can feel remorse for such an action.
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 am
It's my hypo that I wrote in approximately 30 seconds in response to a request, so yeah, Jack was a beastie boy who stole Jill's candy for just no dang reason at all. A complete whim. That only added to his remorse.
Then those are reasons.
Does knowing these reasons change the point about the two ways to react to remorse? I vote "no".
chownah

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L.N.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:41 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:39 pm
I think a teaching on the hindrances might be more appropriate for (2).
This discussion has become so silly. I obliged a request for an example, and now the hypothetical which I offered (as requested) is being nitpicked to death, the point I was trying to make ignored.

You stated that you think a teaching on hindrances might be more appropriate. Kindly provide an example of how you would instruct Jack on the hindrances to help him. Also kindly provide an example of why instructing Jack on the not-self nature of his harmful self-criticism will always be inappropriate.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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L.N.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by L.N. » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:25 am

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:41 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:39 pm
I think a teaching on the hindrances might be more appropriate for (2).
... You stated that you think a teaching on hindrances might be more appropriate. Kindly provide an example of how you would instruct Jack on the hindrances to help him. Also kindly provide an example of why instructing Jack on the not-self nature of his harmful self-criticism will always be inappropriate.
Request not granted, I see. I'll take your silence, and lack of reciprocity in obliging my request, to mean that you understood my point (though you decline to admit it publicly), and you agree that chownah's initial caring advice was in fact unobjectionable, even though it may differ from your advice.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:16 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:36 am
Does knowing these reasons change the point about the two ways to react to remorse? I vote "no".
I say it does.
Even monkeys distinguish between intentional and unintentional harm, and respond differently to it.

There's a characteristic difference between genuine wrongdoing and intentional wrongdoing, and the quality of the remorse afterwards (if it occurs), differs for instance. One can know this from experience.

And there are more ways to reply to remorse than the two mentioned earlier. It's also possible, among other things, to wave it off with an idle gesture of the hand, which seems more likely in the case if the wrongdoing was intentional.

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