Eating in a restaurant part 2

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by Spiny Norman » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:25 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:16 pm
And there are more ways to reply to remorse than the two mentioned earlier. It's also possible, among other things, to wave it off with an idle gesture of the hand, which seems more likely in the case if the wrongdoing was intentional.
The discussion in this thread has tended to confirm my initial view, that going "straight to anatta" with a feeling of remorse is unlikely to be the most skillful response.

"Having done a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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L.N.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by L.N. » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:39 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:25 am
The discussion in this thread has tended to confirm my initial view, that going "straight to anatta" with a feeling of remorse is unlikely to be the most skillful response.

"Having done a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
But in the context of a forum devoted to discussion of the Dhamma, presumably there is more propensity to understand anatta teachings. Chownah's original comment which inspired the backlash was a comment made out of compassion. The proposition in the OP is as follows:
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:47 am
I started this topic to discuss these things (if there is interest) and similar related issues....so.....to make a statement that might raise some interest I'll say that if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc.
I do not agree with your comment that "going 'straight to anatta' with a feeling of remorse is unlikely to be the most skillful response" for those who are informed of the Dhamma path and actively attuned to Sila. For such a person, remorse, if dwelled upon, may be self-afflicting. Rather, as in the Sutta quote provided, one should "exercise restraint in the future," in other words, move on rather than dwell on feelings of remorse. One way to move on from feelings of remorse is to observe the feelings' not-self nature.

I see you still have not responded to my request for a hypothetical, above. You don't have to if you don't want to.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:52 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:25 am
binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:16 pm
And there are more ways to reply to remorse than the two mentioned earlier. It's also possible, among other things, to wave it off with an idle gesture of the hand, which seems more likely in the case if the wrongdoing was intentional.
The discussion in this thread has tended to confirm my initial view, that going "straight to anatta" with a feeling of remorse is unlikely to be the most skillful response.

"Having done a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think it depends on one's grasp of anatta. Any doctrine can be wrongly grasped. If one wrongly grasps anatta then it will likely not be helpful. If one has rightly grasped anatta then it is without doubt the most helpful thing.

If one's bringing the doctrine of anatta to mind leads one to justify wrong doing then one's graps of anatta is wrong.

chownah

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retrofuturist
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:35 am

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:47 am
The discussion then mentioned the issue of whether a feeling was valid or invalid and whether the buddha taught about feelings being valid or invalid.
I think it's less about whether they've "valid" (a term which sounds as if someone insecure is seeking validation of their feelings) or "invalid", but about those which are useful or not useful, skillful or not skillful etc.
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:47 am
I started this topic to discuss these things (if there is interest) and similar related issues....so.....to make a statement that might raise some interest I'll say that if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc.
chownah
Remorse is well viewed in the context of hiri and ottappa.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:25 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:35 am

Remorse is well viewed in the context of hiri and ottappa.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I'm not sure what you mean by this....I'll take a guess that you mean that remorse is an example of hiri and ottappa. If my guess is correct then my saying:
" if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc."
could be modified to say:
" if you feel hiri or ottappa it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc."
In other words, remorse, hiri, and ottoppa are all feelings (which seem to be closely associated) and the buddhas has said that "any feeling whatsoever.....is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am." Is this where you are pointing?
chownah

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L.N.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by L.N. » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:45 am

I posted the following comment but it was almost immediately deleted, probably a computer glitch.
retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:35 am
Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:47 am
The discussion then mentioned the issue of whether a feeling was valid or invalid and whether the buddha taught about feelings being valid or invalid.
I think it's less about whether they've "valid" (a term which sounds as if someone insecure is seeking validation of their feelings) or "invalid", but about those which are useful or not useful, skillful or not skillful etc.
Whether one is "insecure" or "seeking validation" is their own issue, not ours to judge. Even so, I agree that feelings may be skillful or not skillful, to the extent they are volitional action.
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:47 am
I started this topic to discuss these things (if there is interest) and similar related issues....so.....to make a statement that might raise some interest I'll say that if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc.
chownah
Remorse is well viewed in the context of hiri and ottappa.
Remorse also is well viewed in the context of recognizing the feeling of remorse for what it is.
And how, monks, does a monk live contemplating feelings in feelings?

Herein, monks, a monk when experiencing a pleasant feeling knows, "I experience a pleasant feeling"; when experiencing a painful feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling," he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling." When experiencing a pleasant worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a pleasant worldly feeling"; when experiencing a pleasant spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a pleasant spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a painful worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a painful spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling."

Thus he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings externally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in feelings. Or his mindfulness is established with the thought, "Feeling exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus, monks, a monk lives contemplating feelings in feelings.
"The Foundations of Mindfulness: Satipatthana Sutta", translated by Nyanasatta Thera. Access to Insight (BCBS Edition), 30 November 2013, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el019.html.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:14 am

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:25 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:35 am
Remorse is well viewed in the context of hiri and ottappa.
I'm not sure what you mean by this....I'll take a guess that you mean that remorse is an example of hiri and ottappa. If my guess is correct then my saying:
" if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc."
could be modified to say:
" if you feel hiri or ottappa it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc."
In other words, remorse, hiri, and ottoppa are all feelings (which seem to be closely associated) and the buddhas has said that "any feeling whatsoever.....is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am." Is this where you are pointing?
chownah
It would be more accurate to say that whilst it's not a pleasurable or desirable feeling, it can be harnessed so as to provide the impetus to do better next time.

Personally, I think that would be more advantageous, than merely waiting with equanimity (and non-identification) for it to pass. The benefits of hiri and ottappa were outlined in the previous link.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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L.N.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by L.N. » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:14 am
Personally, I think that would be more advantageous, than merely waiting with equanimity (and non-identification) for it to pass. The benefits of hiri and ottappa were outlined in the previous link.
Nobody has suggested "merely waiting" for the feeling to pass. Recognizing feelings for what they are is not the same as "waiting" for something. Or, as stated in the OP, "to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc." is not the same as "merely waiting." Words have meaning, right? No need to twist the Sutta words presented.

The benefits of anatta instruction were outlined in the previous link (which mysteriously was deleted shortly after being posted and needed to be recreated -- hope the same fate does not befall this post).

By the way, it is not a choice between one view and another. Hiri and ottappa can operate contemporaneously (practically speaking, not talking about Abhidhamma mind moments here) with mindful awareness of feelings.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:10 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:25 am
I'm not sure what you mean by this....I'll take a guess that you mean that remorse is an example of hiri and ottappa. If my guess is correct then my saying:
" if you feel remorse it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc."
could be modified to say:
" if you feel hiri or ottappa it is best to view that feeling as not mine, not self, etc."
In other words, remorse, hiri, and ottoppa are all feelings (which seem to be closely associated) and the buddhas has said that "any feeling whatsoever.....is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am." Is this where you are pointing?
This looks like a textbook example of amorality.

In fact, let me give this proper exposure and start a thread on it.

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SDC
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by SDC » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:06 pm

Posts about vegetarianism have been moved to the "Great Vegetarian Debate"

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