The Buddha and sleep

[Tom]

Did the Buddha recommend a certain time for sleep and for waking?

[Mkoll]

For monks: 2am-6am sleepin the rest awake and practicing if we divide the "watches of the night" equitably. Someone else can provide the sutta(s).

No specific recommendation for laymen, though he mentions sleeping late as the "downfall of man" (DN 31 (and elsewhere in spirit at least)). From personal experience and that of absolutely everyone I've ever talked to about it, I get more done waking up when earlier in the morning refreshed compared to waking up later in the day.

[Dhammarakkhito]

https://simplesuttas.wordpress.com/2015 ... sic-sleep/

since i'm here, https://simplesuttas.wordpress.com/2014 ... ddha-diet/

[mal4mac]

Einstein recommended sleeping nine hours a night and seemed to get a lot done. I've started staying in bed for about nine hours, each night, and feel full of calm energy from waking up, and throughout most of the day. On this regime I can read tough books without getting fatigued, seem to be getting more creative ideas, and am much happier. But, note, I don't (can't) sleep nine hours, so at least one hour of that nine is meditation before and after sleep. If I meditated as much as those monks maybe I would only need four hours sleep!

I like sleep so much that I'm thinking of taking a nap/doing lying down concentration meditation in the afternoon (when my energy takes a bit of a dip.) Churchill, and others, heartily recommended taking a nap ("siesta").

I also sometimes fall asleep when meditating, but don't stress about it, I read in a meditation guide that you should just let it happen. You have plenty of time to meditate when you are awake. If you feel like sleeping, sleep!

So my regime is: sleep as long as I sleep (no alarm clock!) and then meditate until "I simply must" get up. Now I'll go and read that sutta and see if I should (yet again) be doing something else...

[mal4mac]

since i'm here, https://simplesuttas.wordpress.com/2014 ... ddha-diet/

On diet, I've been right at the centre of what I should be according to the BMI chart for the last ten years, varying only a few pounds either way, and I haven't adopted the buddha diet. What I have done, in a slightly OCD manner, is record my weight every week for the last ten years. I recently read a habit change expert who said the best thing to do to begin changing a habit is to record what you are doing when trying to initiate change. So, inadvertently, this is what I'd be doing! I think it works because I *really* realise I'm two pounds overweight - it's there in writing! By writing it down I think it sticks in memory, so when I reach for that extra slice of bread I remember I'm 2lbs over, and resist the bread. I guess, in Buddhist terms, by recording my weight I can't help but be mindful of the situation, and (of course) being mindful is the first step to initiating change. If you are oblivious, or denying, or forgetful, the situation isn't going to change!

[Dhammarakkhito]

weight is just a number
what matters is how your body mass affects your health
what matters more is how how you diet affects your mind; concentration arises very well in one who eats one meal a day. this is why lay life can be so constraining
if i go to work at two in the afternoon and solar noon is around actual noon and i work a good six-eight hours then i have to cram all of my calories into a less than an hour span.
again, since i'm here, two more suttas about eating
'king pasenadi goes on a diet' www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn0 ... .olen.html
'a son's flesh' https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
overeating, even for a layperson, it all comes down to craving

[Dhammanando]

For monks: 2am-6am sleepin the rest awake and practicing if we divide the "watches of the night" equitably. Someone else can provide the sutta(s).

Actually it's the middle watch, 10pm-2am, that's for sleeping.

“When, Aggivessana, the noble disciple is moderate in eating, then the Tathāgata disciplines him further: ‘Come, bhikkhu, be devoted to wakefulness. During the day, while walking back and forth and sitting, purify your mind of obstructive states. In the first watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, purify your mind of obstructive states. In the middle watch of the night you should lie down on the right side in the lion’s pose with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and fully aware, after noting in your mind the time for rising. After rising, in the last watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, purify your mind of obstructive states.’

[mal4mac]

I've heard of the lion pose and remembered it as "lying on the right side". Is this necessary? I tend to vary it with lying on the left side, or do "corpse meditation" (lying on the back as still as a corpse while just being mindful of what comes into consciousness, not focusing on the breath, not letting thoughts runaway with themselves - corpse can't breath or think )

Intriguing article here:

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/lyin ... tation.htm

By the contemplative recluse monk Sotapanna Jhanananda (Jeffrey S, Brooks)

He meditates lying down several times a day whenever the body reports fatigue. He rises at 4 AM to meditate and sleeps about 5 or 6 hours each night. He usually lies down for about 15 minutes to a 1/2 hour. He says the "lion's pose" is lying on the right side with the right arm cradling the head, the left arm along the side, and the left leg bent at the knee, with the left foot lying in the arch of the right foot. I tend not to cradle my head as I use a pillow, and my left arm is not strictly along the side, it's mostly on the bed. Legs are bent but left isn't usually on arch. So am I doing it wrong? Or is Jeffrey being too specific?

He also says, "In the yogas Shivasana is recommended. Shivasana is lying flat on the back with legs about shoulder width apart and arms by the sides, with hands about a fist distance from the body, and palms turned up. I have found I can relax deeper in Shivasana than I can in lion's pose."

This sounds like my "corpse pose", except I usually have palms down. I agree about the greater degree of relaxation. But is this Buddhist?

He says, "The intent of lying down meditation is to relax the body at the deepest level. It is therefore recommended to practice some kind of progressive relaxation method. The classic U Ba Khin Vipassana body scanning method can be effectively modified for this purpose. Simply scan the muscles and tendons for any sign of tension. When tension is found simply relax it. If you cannot immediately relax the tension, then simply observe the tense location as if it were a meditation object. I have found the most tense areas of my body eventually relaxed with enough patience."

I tend not to do this, maybe I should... (Kabat Zinn also recommends this kind of thing in his MBSR books...)

Jeffrey adds: "... as a dedicated contemplative, ... one would wish to never become unconscious, not even while the body gains its rest at night. Therefore the best times to practice lying down meditation is at the beginning of the sleep cycle."

This sounds a bit scary! Is he saying that the greatest contemplatives are conscious 24/7? That is, they never sleep! I like sleeping - if you are unconscious you are not conscious of suffering and have achieved the purpose of Buddhism on a temporary basis (until you wake up or have nightmares!) So I sleep as long as possible - no alarm clock, and always try to get back to sleep if I wake early. I actually perform concentration meditation if I wake early - some say it is most likely to lead to sleep (it's like counting sheep!)

[chownah]

For monks: 2am-6am sleepin the rest awake and practicing if we divide the "watches of the night" equitably. Someone else can provide the sutta(s).

Actually it's the middle watch, 10pm-2am, that's for sleeping.

“When, Aggivessana, the noble disciple is moderate in eating, then the Tathāgata disciplines him further: ‘Come, bhikkhu, be devoted to wakefulness. During the day, while walking back and forth and sitting, purify your mind of obstructive states. In the first watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, purify your mind of obstructive states. In the middle watch of the night you should lie down on the right side in the lion’s pose with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and fully aware, after noting in your mind the time for rising. After rising, in the last watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, purify your mind of obstructive states.’

How does one get from the suttas which were written before clocks to the idea that 10pm to 2am was the "middle watch" back then....that might be the times for some modern day "middle watch" but it might not have been the same back then. Is there anything which even says that the different watches were of the same length back then?....that they were the same length during every season of the year?
chownah

[Dhammanando]

Is there anything which even says that the different watches were of the same length back then?

I don't know if the texts ever state that they were of equal length, but the Vibhaṅga commentary states that the middle watch is one sixth of the day and night, which would make it a four-hour period. In Thailand, since daylight and darkness are roughly twelve hours each throughout the year, the middle watch is taken to be what I stated. In Bihar and Uttar Pradesh I suppose that the time when the middle watch begins would be subject to some seasonal variation, though its duration would still be four hours.

[Garrib]

Intriguing article here:

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/lyin ... tation.htm

By the contemplative recluse monk Sotapanna Jhanananda (Jeffrey S, Brooks)

Sorry I didn't read the article - I might later when I have more time. Just wanted to give you a heads up that Jhanananda is considered by some a controversial "teacher" of Buddhism. Some people might even use stronger language, but I don't know enough about him to say much beyond this...

[Pondera]

Can a monk be disrobed for oversleeping; sleeping excessively?

[Mkoll]

For monks: 2am-6am sleepin the rest awake and practicing if we divide the "watches of the night" equitably. Someone else can provide the sutta(s).

Actually it's the middle watch, 10pm-2am, that's for sleeping.

“When, Aggivessana, the noble disciple is moderate in eating, then the Tathāgata disciplines him further: ‘Come, bhikkhu, be devoted to wakefulness. During the day, while walking back and forth and sitting, purify your mind of obstructive states. In the first watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, purify your mind of obstructive states. In the middle watch of the night you should lie down on the right side in the lion’s pose with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and fully aware, after noting in your mind the time for rising. After rising, in the last watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, purify your mind of obstructive states.’

That's right, thanks for the correction Bhante.

[chownah]

Is there anything which even says that the different watches were of the same length back then?

I don't know if the texts ever state that they were of equal length, but the Vibhaṅga commentary states that the middle watch is one sixth of the day and night, which would make it a four-hour period. In Thailand, since daylight and darkness are roughly twelve hours each throughout the year, the middle watch is taken to be what I stated. In Bihar and Uttar Pradesh I suppose that the time when the middle watch begins would be subject to some seasonal variation, though its duration would still be four hours.

Thanks for the reply! This does give a definition of the duration of the middle watch. I'm wondering how someone at that time would know when the middle watch begins and when it ends. This could be done by observing the stars I guess....or maybe dripping water emptying an urn....or an hour glass (four hour glass?). Any idea how it was done?

Also, can't the following excerpt from your excerpt be reasonably taken to mean that the recommendation is to lie down to sleep sometime in the middle watch and that one should awaken sometime in the last watch?

In the middle watch of the night you should lie down on the right side in the lion’s pose with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and fully aware, after noting in your mind the time for rising. After rising, in the last watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, purify your mind of obstructive states.’

The interpretation I am asking about doesn't require any kind of time keeping and would give some flexibility to allow for those who do not function well on four hours sleep.....or maybe people requiring more sleep are considered untrainable....
chownah

[Dhammanando]

Can a monk be disrobed for oversleeping; sleeping excessively?

No. In fact it wouldn't transgress any Vinaya rule at all. The offence would be against the Dhamma principle of devotion to wakefulness (jāgariyānuyoga).