Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 584
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by aflatun » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:19 am

This is a fascinating, and difficult discussion as how we understand cessation within PS, and in other contexts like DooDot is alluding to I think, informs how we understand what we're practicing for. Different understandings of cessation seems to lead to different "Buddhisms."
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18389
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:06 am

Greetings ToVincent,
ToVincent wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:03 pm
retrofuturist wrote:The materialist cannot fathom how there can be none of these things, so it is an invitation to go beyond how these things are normally regarded.
Aren't you putting a bit, the cart before the ox here?
In the context of the 12 sensory āyatanāni, there is not yet the purpose of getting into the highest Jhanas - as in reaching the ākiñcañña āyatana (field of experience of nothingness), as you state it.

In your case, one would have first to get rid of the world of senses - then completely transcend the perceptions of form (rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā), as well as the vanishing of perceptions (based) upon the organs of senses (paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā) - then transcend the field of Infinite Space (ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ samatikkamma). Before one could reach the ākiñcañña āyatana.
No, that's not what I'm suggesting at all.

I'm speaking simply of yoniso manasikara - radical attention. Nanananda's Nibbana Sermon 3 provides some background context...
...the concepts of birth, decay-and-death, passing away and reappearing, are meaningful only in the context of the saṃsāric vortex between consciousness and name-and-form. If somehow or other this interrelation could be broken, this saṃsāric vortex, the whirlpool, could be stopped, then, after that, nothing remains to be said, nothing remains to be predicated. And as it is said in the Upasīvasutta of the Sutta Nipāta:
Yena naṃ vajju, taṃ tassa natthi, "that by which they would speak of him, that for him exists not".

There are a number of Canonical passages that show us the relevance of this vortex simile to the understanding of the doctrine of paṭicca samuppāda. In the MahāPadānasutta of the Dīgha Nikāya we find a lengthy description of the manner in which the bodhisatta Vipassī got an insight into paṭicca samuppāda. We are told that his mode of approach was one of radical reflection, or yoniso manasikāra, literally: "attention by way of the matrix". One might as well say that it is an attention by way of the vortex. It is as if a man with keen vision, sitting under a tree by a river, were to watch how a fallen leaf gets carried away by the water current, only to get whirled up and disappear in a vortex.

It is clearly stated in the case of Vipassī bodhisatta that his understanding through wisdom came as a result of 'radical reflection', yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo. So his insight into paṭicca samuppāda was definitely not due to recollection of past lives. Yoni means the 'matrix', or the 'place of origin'. So in yoniso manasikāra always the attention has to turn towards the place of origin.

So, true to this method, we find the bodhisatta Vipassī starting his reasoning from the very end of the paṭicca samuppāda formula: Kimhi nu kho sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, kiṃ paccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ? "Given what, does decay-and-death come to be, from which condition comes decay-and-death?" And to this question, the following answer occurred to him: Jātiyā kho sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ. "Given birth, does decay-and-death come to be, from birth as condition comes decay-and-death."

In the same manner, taking pair by pair, he went on reasoning progressively. For instance his next question was: Kimhi nu kho sati jāti hoti, kiṃ paccayā jāti? "Given what, does birth come to be, from which condition comes birth?" And the answer to it was: Bhave kho sati jāti hoti, bhavapaccayā jāti. "Given becoming, birth comes to be, from becoming as condition comes birth."

He went on reasoning like this up to and including name-and-form. But when he came to consciousness, he had to turn back. When he searched for the condition of consciousness, he found that name-and-form itself is the condition, whereby he understood their interdependence, and then he gave expression to the significance of this discovery in the following words:

Paccudāvattati kho idaṃ viññāṇaṃ nāmarūpamhā, nāparaṃ gacchati. Ettāvatā jāyetha vā jīyetha vā mīyetha vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā, yadidaṃ nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṃ, nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṃ, saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā taṇhā, taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṃ, upādānapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃsokaparidevadukkhadomanassūpāyāsā sambhavanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.

By means of radical reflection the bodhisatta Vipassī understood that all concepts of birth, decay-and-death converge on the relationship between consciousness and name-and-form:

"This consciousness turns back from name-and-form, it does not go beyond. In so far can one be born, or grow old, or die, or pass away, or reappear, in so far as this is, namely: consciousness is dependent on name-and-form, and name-and-form on consciousness; dependent on name-and-form, the six sense-bases; dependent on the six sense-bases, contact; dependent on contact, feeling; dependent on feeling, craving; dependent on craving, grasping; dependent on grasping, becoming; dependent on becoming, birth; and dependent on birth, decay-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair come to be. Thus is the arising of this entire mass of suffering."

The fact that this understanding of paṭicca samuppāda signified the arising of the Dhamma-eye in Vipassī bodhisatta is stated in the following words:

Samudayo samudayo'ti kho, bhikkhave, Vipassissa bodhisattassa pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi.

"'Arising, arising', thus, O! monks, in regard to things unheard of before, there arose in the bodhisatta Vipassī the eye, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light."

In the same way it is said that the bodhisatta clarified for himself the cessation aspect through radical reflection: Kimhi nu kho asati jarāmaraṇaṃ na hoti, kissa nirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ nirodho? "In the absence of what, will decay-and-death not be, with the cessation of what, is the cessation of decay-and-death?" And as the answer to it, the following thought occurred to him: Jātiyā kho asati jarāmaraṇaṃ na hoti, jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃnirodho. "In the absence of birth, there is no decay-and-death, with the cessation of birth is the cessation of decay-and-death."
Likewise he went on reflecting progressively, until he reached the link between name-and-form and consciousness, and then it occurred to him:
Nāmarūpanirodhā viññāṇanirodho, viññāṇanirodhā nāma-rūpanirodho. "From the cessation of name-and-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-and-form."

Once this vital link is broken, that is, when consciousness ceases with the cessation of name-and-form, and name-and-form ceases with the cessation of consciousness, then all the other links following name-and-form, such as the six sense-bases, contact and feeling, come to cease immediately.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by L.N. » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:02 am
... while there is no phassa in Nirodha Samapatti, Nirodha Samapatti is obviously not Phassa Nirodha.
Understood, thank you. This is one of the difficulties of trying to speak practically while using these phrases.

A problem with the word "nirodha".

Also from Cūḷavedalla Sutta:
“For a monastic who has emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visākha, his mind inclines towards seclusion, it slopes towards seclusion, it slants towards seclusion.”
link
[Note 472] M.T: Nibbaana, the object of the fruition consciousness that arises on emerging from cessation, is called seclusion (viveka) because it is secluded from all conditioned things.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

"You can indulge your hauteur and prissiness at someone else's expense." -- Ven. Dhammanando

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 5121
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:14 am

L.N. wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:27 pm
... vedana are certainly experienced by arahants, but they never generate tanha.
link
Yes, given that Nibbana involves the cessation of the taints, but not feeling. But is it possible to experience vedana without contact? Is it possible to experience anything without contact, given that our world - consciousness at each sense base - only arises in dependence on sense-base and sense-object?

"The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling..."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"When consciousness arises dependent on the eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye-consciousness…when consciousness arises dependent on the mind and mind-objects, it is reckoned as mind-consciousness."
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn38
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:30 am, edited 4 times in total.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 5121
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:20 am

aflatun wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:19 am
Different understandings of cessation seems to lead to different "Buddhisms."
Indeed. There seem to be different interpretations of what cessation entails, and whether it is progressive or instantaneous. Though I don't see how the nidana definitions in SN12.2 could support instantaneous cessation, ie all the nidanas ceasing when Nibbana is attained. The suttas in fact seem to describe a progressive cessation, beginning here for example at the end of MN38 with the cessation of delight and clinging:

“On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering."
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn38
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15207
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:50 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:06 am
Once this vital link is broken, that is, when consciousness ceases with the cessation of name-and-form, and name-and-form ceases with the cessation of consciousness, then all the other links following name-and-form, such as the six sense-bases, contact and feeling, come to cease immediately.
In my reading of these sermons, the cessation appears to be temporary. The sermon continues:
Ñāṇananda wrote: The MahāPadānasutta https://suttacentral.net/dn14 goes on to say that the bodhisatta Vi­passã continued to dwell seeing the arising and passing away of the five grasping groups and that before long his mind was fully emancipated from the influxes and that he attained to full en­lightenment. It is also said in the sutta in this connection that the bodhisatta followed this mode of reflection, because he un­der­stood that it is the way of in­sight leading to awakening...
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
Here's the passage from DN 14:
‘And for him, abiding in the discernment of the rising and passing away of the five groups depending on grasping, not long was it before his heart, void of grasping, was set free from the “Intoxicants.”
:heart:
Mike

ToVincent
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by ToVincent » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:59 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:06 am
...... :)
Hi Paul!

You quote Nanananda, and emphasizes the last sentence:
...the concepts of birth, decay-and-death, passing away and reappearing, are meaningful only in the context of the saṃsāric vortex between consciousness and name-and-form. If somehow or other this interrelation could be broken, this saṃsāric vortex, the whirlpool, could be stopped, then, after that, nothing remains to be said, nothing remains to be predicated. And as it is said in the Upasīvasutta of the Sutta Nipāta:
Yena naṃ vajju, taṃ tassa natthi, "that by which they would speak of him, that for him exists not - Snp 5.7".
This is exactly what I was saying. You and Nanananda are mixing up things that are happening beyond consciousness in the patilomam of paṭiccasamuppāda (viz. ākiñcaññāyatana -as in the 7th Jhana); with things that are happening in saḷāyatana.
Please read Snp 5.7 (uppasiva sutta) more closely, and you will see that your: "Yena naṃ vajju, taṃ tassa natthi, "that by which they would speak of him, that for him exists not", comes well after the following:

“He who is passionless regarding all sense pleasures, Upasīva,” said the Gracious One,
“who is depending on nothingness, having given up all else,intent on the highest freedom which still has perception—
“Sabbesu kāmesu yo vītarāgo,
(upasīvāti bhagavā):
Ākiñcaññaṃ nissito hitvā maññaṃ;
Saññāvimokkhe parame vimutto
That mean that your quote refers to a stage, even beyond the ākiñcañña stage.
That is why I said that you are confusing people a bit.
As I meant in my previous post; the "liberation" of consciousness, would not lead to your: ""that by which they would speak of him, that for him exists not"".
There are a lot of steps before that. A lot. And they involve other lokā.

Understanding transcendence (samatikkamma) might help, in that regard. https://justpaste.it/1c78w
For we are dealing with - and in - the kama loka, here.
So let's not get too carried away, and affected.

Moreover, your "vortex", (that I call the "vicious circle") is much more simpler than it seems.
(see here: https://justpaste.it/1695d - after reading the following, and look at the link at the bottom; where all this is explained in details - with suttas (w/ parallels)).

So very simply, this is the way it goes:

1. Consciousness gets established >>
2. Which triggers the descent of Nāma-Rūpa in saḷāyatana; in which nāmarūpa does the all shebang with the 12 āyatanāni => "sense-consciousness" - plus "descends" into satta, for the - contact, feeling, perception, whatever manasi (mano) stuff (manasikāra), and cetanā - business. >>
Which maintains consciousness, that will again establish itself. (back to #1)

So and so forth.

So we have:
1. Consciousness >> 2. Namarūpa >> 1. Consciousness >> 2. Namarūpa >> ..... - ad nauseam.

Consciousness, being constantly maintained and established; cannot "liberate" itself from the kama loka - and therefore, cannot reach the higher spheres.
It "turns back at name & form".

Now sure, one has to have "attention from the origin," to understand that the first time. That is to say that the Buddha had to replay paṭiccasamuppāda in reverse (patilomam), to understand that.
But I don't think that this is what is asked from us.
The "trick" is known now -thanks to the Buddha - What is needed now is to get out of that "vortex".

And I think that restraining the indriyani, is the most important thing to do, in that regard; to prevent the maintenance of consciousness; and the continuance of this "vortex"/"vicious circle".

----

Now, how does "contact" fit into that picture?
Check my previous posts.

Metta, my good man.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 795
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:23 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:59 pm
to prevent the maintenance of consciousness
Consciousness can be free.

A liberated consciousness would not blink out of existence.

Rather it would be liberated (a sensible goal).
Matthew 7

DooDoot
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:10 am

ToVincent wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:59 pm
So very simply, this is the way it goes:
1. Consciousness gets established >>
2. Which triggers the descent of Nāma-Rūpa in saḷāyatana; in which nāmarūpa does the all shebang with the 12 āyatanāni => "sense-consciousness" - plus "descends" into satta, for the - contact, feeling, perception, whatever manasi (mano) stuff (manasikāra), and cetanā - business. >>
Which maintains consciousness, that will again establish itself. (back to #1)
Is the above referring to some kind of reincarnation? :shrug:
So we have:
1. Consciousness >> 2. Namarūpa >> 1. Consciousness >> 2. Namarūpa >> ..... - ad nauseam.

Consciousness, being constantly maintained and established; cannot "liberate" itself from the kama loka - and therefore, cannot reach the higher spheres. It "turns back at name & form".
The word "kama" means "sensual" rather than "sensory".
The "trick" is known now -thanks to the Buddha - What is needed now is to get out of that "vortex". And I think that restraining the indriyani, is the most important thing to do, in that regard; to prevent the maintenance of consciousness; and the continuance of this "vortex"/"vicious circle".
There are five indriyani (eyes, ears, nose, tongue & body - per MN 43). The Buddha did not teach what you have posted as the escape. To quote:

Friend, what can be known with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five [sense] faculties? "Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known [as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The dimension of nothingness can be known 'There is nothing.'

MN 43
The Buddha seemed to teach about an escape or liberation with the six sense operating; with the whole shebang of the 18 sense spheres including feeling.
The Ending of the Round: Full Cessation

On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

On hearing a sound with the ear…On smelling an odour with the nose…On tasting a flavour with the tongue…On touching a tangible with the body…On cognizing a mind-object with the mind, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing…With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

MN 38
These are the six elements’: this, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted … uncensured by wise ascetics and brahmins. ‘These are the six bases for contact’ … ‘These are the eighteen mental examinations’ … ‘These are the four noble truths’: this, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, irreproachable, and uncensured by wise ascetics and brahmins.

AN 3.61
:candle:
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:23 pm
Consciousness can be free.

A liberated consciousness would not blink out of existence.

Rather it would be liberated (a sensible goal).
Like this?
If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

SN 22.53

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 5121
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:25 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:10 am
If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
SN 22.53
What does this passage mean, practically speaking? What is consciousness not landing on?
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 5121
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:52 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:40 am
A few scholars, such as P.A. Payutto have suggested 'cessation' is a problematic translation for 'nirodha'. My understanding is don't get stuck on the English word 'cessation'.
The usual formula in the suttas is "the remainderless fading & stopping" of this or that nidana, so "cessation" does seem like an accurate translation.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 5121
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:58 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:06 am
I'm speaking simply of yoniso manasikara - radical attention. Nanananda's Nibbana Sermon 3 provides some background context...
Once this vital link is broken, that is, when consciousness ceases with the cessation of name-and-form, and name-and-form ceases with the cessation of consciousness, then all the other links following name-and-form, such as the six sense-bases, contact and feeling, come to cease immediately.
But how can there be any experience at all without consciousness and the sense bases? Surely the absence of these would equate to unconsciousness or death?
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

chownah
Posts: 6475
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by chownah » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:03 am

spiny norman,
I don't know what you mean by "practically speaking" but it says in the sutta that concsciousness typically lands on form, feeling, perception, or fabrication....so I guess these would be what consciousness does not land on too.

Here is the entire sutta:
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object),[1] landing on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to feeling, supported by feeling (as its object), landing on feeling, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to perception, supported by perception (as its object), landing on perception, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), landing on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of form...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"


Notes
1."Supported by form": I.e., having form as its object. Similarly for feeling, perception, and fabrications.
chownah

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 15207
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:08 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:58 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:06 am
I'm speaking simply of yoniso manasikara - radical attention. Nanananda's Nibbana Sermon 3 provides some background context...
Once this vital link is broken, that is, when consciousness ceases with the cessation of name-and-form, and name-and-form ceases with the cessation of consciousness, then all the other links following name-and-form, such as the six sense-bases, contact and feeling, come to cease immediately.
But how can there be any experience at all without consciousness and the sense bases? Surely the absence of these would equate to unconsciousness or death?
I don't think so. Until the breakup of the body, it's a temporary cessation, as Ven Nanananda explains in the next paragraph after what you have quoted: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30370&start=60#p440521 (and in many other places in the sermons).

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 5121
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:45 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:08 am
Spiny Norman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:58 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:06 am
I'm speaking simply of yoniso manasikara - radical attention. Nanananda's Nibbana Sermon 3 provides some background context...

But how can there be any experience at all without consciousness and the sense bases? Surely the absence of these would equate to unconsciousness or death?
I don't think so. Until the breakup of the body, it's a temporary cessation, as Ven Nanananda explains in the next paragraph after what you have quoted: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30370&start=60#p440521 (and in many other places in the sermons).

:heart:
Mike
A temporary cessation would make more sense, perhaps similar to the meditative state, "the cessation of feeling and perception"? As I mentioned elsewhere, the usual formula for cessation in the suttas is "the remainderless fading & stopping" of this or that nidana, which sounds rather final. ;)
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 5121
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:49 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:03 am
spiny norman,
I don't know what you mean by "practically speaking" but it says in the sutta that concsciousness typically lands on form, feeling, perception, or fabrication....so I guess these would be what consciousness does not land on too.

Here is the entire sutta:
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object),[1] landing on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to feeling, supported by feeling (as its object), landing on feeling, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to perception, supported by perception (as its object), landing on perception, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), landing on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of form...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"


Notes
1."Supported by form": I.e., having form as its object. Similarly for feeling, perception, and fabrications.
chownah
Is this passage descriptive of "bare attention"?
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

ToVincent
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by ToVincent » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:00 pm

.
What that "temporary cessation", until the break up of the body, could probably mean?

Isn't that just about "emptiness"?

See here viewtopic.php?f=19&t=30355&p=439720&hilit=121#p439720 the last but one paragraph.
Where in MN 121, the village is meditated as emptiness, when the bhikkhu is in the forest. In other words, as the sutta says:
"whatever is not present, I therefore see as empty".

So - unless you are a proponent of the late "buddhism" of the bahya-artha-sunyata; which would see the village as a pure idealistic mirage, constructed in a jiffy, for your eyes only; instead of something real, that is not present anymore - you could equate the loss of "sense-consciousness" and the all kama loka, with the village in MN 121.
And you could see the liberated consciousness, and the liberated citta, as the new mental domain of your experience.

Neither your body, nor the other senses are totally vanishing here - nor the materiality of the external world.
It's just that you are in another mental plane.
The plane of the internal forms loka.

_________________

As far as where consciousness lands on; chownah has given rightly SN 22.53 - (54 & 55).

Then there is also SN 22.3 where it is said that the elements/dhatus are the home of consciousness (here, the khandhas as constituted, supportive (grasp-able) manifestations/dhatus).
The (form, etc.) element, householder, is the home of consciousness
(Rūpa, etc.)dhātukho,gahapati, viññāṇassa oko.


Then there is also SN 5.9, where it is said:
“Just so the aggregates and elements, and these six bases of sensory contact, have come to be dependent on a cause; with the cause’s breakup they will cease.”
Evaṃ khandhā ca dhātuyo, cha ca āyatanā ime; Hetuṃ paṭicca sambhūtā, hetubhaṅgā nirujjhare”ti.

Here, obviously, the cause of the aggregates and elements is consciousness.
--
So all the above, can have us infer that the definitions of the NāmaRūpa nidāna in SĀ 298 and Arv 5, can be applicable to the Nikāyas as well.
That is to say:
Name/nāma (名) is the four non-material aggregates (四無色陰); namely feeling (受陰), perception (想陰), synergetic activities (行陰), and consciousness (識陰) aggregates.
The Arthaviniścaya sutra (Arv 5) gives also the same as the latter; with activities as saṁskāra.
And Form/Rūpa, is the four great elements (mahābhūtāna rūpa) and the forms out of (derived from) them (upādāya); like in the Nikāya's sutta.

And these definitions in the Āgama and Sanskrit texts, are not at all contradictory with the definition in SN 12.2 (viz. contact >> feeling >> perception >> manasi kṛ >> intention), that applies stricto sensu, to nāmarūpa in Satta.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Saengnapha
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:07 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:58 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:06 am
I'm speaking simply of yoniso manasikara - radical attention. Nanananda's Nibbana Sermon 3 provides some background context...
Once this vital link is broken, that is, when consciousness ceases with the cessation of name-and-form, and name-and-form ceases with the cessation of consciousness, then all the other links following name-and-form, such as the six sense-bases, contact and feeling, come to cease immediately.
But how can there be any experience at all without consciousness and the sense bases? Surely the absence of these would equate to unconsciousness or death?
The absence is about the perception of subject and object. Without this duality, there is no experiencer creating illusion. There is no center, there is Suchness, the purity of the way things are. It is impossible to grasp this through thought. Thinking as we know it, stops. This whole discussion is useless and goes against what the Buddha taught about taking no position. You cannot grasp this with your mind. That is what a scholar does, not what a Buddha does.

chownah
Posts: 6475
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by chownah » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:27 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:49 am
chownah wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:03 am
spiny norman,
I don't know what you mean by "practically speaking" but it says in the sutta that concsciousness typically lands on form, feeling, perception, or fabrication....so I guess these would be what consciousness does not land on too.

Here is the entire sutta:
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object),[1] landing on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to feeling, supported by feeling (as its object), landing on feeling, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to perception, supported by perception (as its object), landing on perception, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), landing on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of form...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"


Notes
1."Supported by form": I.e., having form as its object. Similarly for feeling, perception, and fabrications.
chownah
Is this passage descriptive of "bare attention"?
I don't usually even think about the idea of "bare attention".....so I'm not able to comment on it. You asked "What is consciousness not landing on?" and I think the sutta gives you the answer.

Also, notice how in the first half it deals with form, feelings, perception, and fabrications...while in the second half (about abandoning passion) these four are mentioned but consciousness is added too....so it seems you have consciousness not landing on consciousness? Seems strangly asymetric to not have consciousness in the first half and yet have it in the second half....and consciousness not landing on consciousness seems a bit bizarre.
chownah

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by L.N. » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:07 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:20 am
... whether it is progressive or instantaneous.
What is the difference, if any?

Does "progressive" mean contact ceases with bodily death, and does "instantaneous" mean that contact ceases while the body continues to live? Or the other way around? Or something else?

Some interesting discussion at the following link, in case it is helpful: The Abhidhamma in Practice
For the arahant, the liberated one, the cittas that arise in him can no longer be associated with any unwholesome roots. The cittas that the arahant experiences are neither wholesome nor unwholesome, as he does not generate any further kamma; his cittas are exclusively indeterminate. These indeterminate cittas can be functional (kiriya), as on occasions when he is mentally active, or resultants (vipaaka) when he is experiencing the effects of past kamma or abiding in the meditative attainment of fruition.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

"You can indulge your hauteur and prissiness at someone else's expense." -- Ven. Dhammanando

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 54 guests