Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

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ToVincent
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by ToVincent » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:24 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:27 pm
I don't usually even think about the idea of "bare attention".....so I'm not able to comment on it.
Yeah! - good!
That "bare attention" stuff is the realm of the those who have very well understood, that they can play on the ambiguity of the matter - knowing pertinently, that this "bare attention" can only occur when one has, at least, totally abandonned the kama loka.
While telling you that you should experience it, while in the kama loka. And obviously telling you that the Buddha, enjoined you to do the latter.
Painful! - and a major reason to want to leave this all shebang, we're living in.
They dress that same bloody table; ever bloody day that nāmarūpa makes.
chownah wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:27 pm
You asked "What is consciousness not landing on?" and I think the sutta gives you the answer.

Also, notice how in the first half it deals with form, feelings, perception, and fabrications...while in the second half (about abandoning passion) these four are mentioned but consciousness is added too....so it seems you have consciousness not landing on consciousness? Seems strangly asymetric to not have consciousness in the first half and yet have it in the second half....and consciousness not landing on consciousness seems a bit bizarre.
You have to understand the difference between khandhas & dhatus. More precisely, between khandhas & khandhas that "turns out" dhatus, like in SN 22.3, or SN 22.53.

Khandhas are what exists - Dhatus are khandhas that manifest themselves with something new.

Again, when you have seen a Picasso's painting, that has added to all the aggregates (khandhas) - these aggregates are lying there, unmanifested - waiting for some more intention and desire to see more Picasso's painting.
When these intentions get you to see another painting, the consciousness that was maintained, establishes itself in the khandhas. Each khandha is the home of this consciousness (SN 22.3).
In such a way, the old khandhas (aggregates) become new elements (dhatus). And the result of all these khandhas is the new consciousness element.

How to understand dhatus?

For instance, there is the earth element (dhatu) in a block of wood (aggregate of wood) - dārukkhandhe pathavīdhātu.
There is also the water element, etc.

In our case, the aggregates of the new Picasso's painting, become totally new dhatus. There are no old dhatus in the new painting. That is to say that the old khandhas (the old feelings, perception, synergies, etc. - that Picasso had put in the old painting), are replaced by new elements (dhatus) (new feelings, perception, synergies, etc.) - The new dhatus, forms the new aggregate. But it is also the new + the olds.

Its a bit complicated to try to explain that: - in an aggregate (khandha) - the new aggregate is, in itself a totally different set of new dhatus - but at the same time, this aggregate is the new; but also the old.
In other words, the new painting that you see, is a totally different set of dhatus, that forms that new painting. But it is also the aggregate of all the Picasso's paintings you've ever saw in your life.

Dhatus are often the new manifested parts of khandhas. The new thing you grasp to, among a set of old aggregates. The new painting, among all the old, you've seen.
Dhatus are often the new elements, that will make the old khandhas attractive again.

Like if the earth element of the log of wood, was changing its color from a reddish color to a an orangeish color; to attract your attention.
The orangeish element color is your new aggregated experience - but the redish and orangeish elements colors, are your summated aggregated experience. The latter is just lying there, waiting for a new experience, with new dhatus/aggregate.

I hope you can catch that general idea, in the context of the establishment of consciousness.
That is to say that the "old" consciousness, makes its home in the new dhatus of the khandhas (but not in the consciousness dhatu). Because it is the sum of these new elements, that makes the "new" consciousness element. This is what is expressed in SN 22.3, or SN 22.53.
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In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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We are all possessed - more or less.
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And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:13 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:07 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:58 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:06 am
I'm speaking simply of yoniso manasikara - radical attention. Nanananda's Nibbana Sermon 3 provides some background context...

But how can there be any experience at all without consciousness and the sense bases? Surely the absence of these would equate to unconsciousness or death?
The absence is about the perception of subject and object. Without this duality, there is no experiencer creating illusion. There is no center, there is Suchness, the purity of the way things are. It is impossible to grasp this through thought. Thinking as we know it, stops. This whole discussion is useless and goes against what the Buddha taught about taking no position. You cannot grasp this with your mind. That is what a scholar does, not what a Buddha does.
But the suttas describe a functional duality, since for example eye-consciousness only arises in dependence on vision and visible form, ie sense-base and sense-object ( not that different to a modern scientific understanding of human perception ). This functional duality is clearly and unambiguously described in MN18 and the Loka Sutta, which also describe how phassa ( contact or sense-impression ) is the meeting of the three.

As the suttas explain, the problem arises when we appropriate and cling to these, regarding them as me and mine. I think that is the basis of the subjective duality you refer to, it stems from craving and clinging to aspects of experience - to the aggregates, to the sense bases, and so on. So when self-view fades there is just experience, not the sense of "my experience" - I reckon that is what the Bahiya Sutta passage is describing, "In the seen, just the seen..."
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:34 am

L.N. wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:07 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:20 am
... whether it is progressive or instantaneous.
What is the difference, if any?
Nidanas ceasing in succession over a period of time v. all nidanas ceasing at the same instant. I don't see how the nidana definitions in SN12.2 could support instantaneous cessation, ie all the nidanas ceasing when Nibbana is attained. Though all the nidanas ceasing when the Arahant dies might make sense.

The suttas in fact seem to describe a progressive cessation, as for example at the end of MN38, commencing with the cessation of delight and clinging.
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:26 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:13 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:07 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:58 am


But how can there be any experience at all without consciousness and the sense bases? Surely the absence of these would equate to unconsciousness or death?
The absence is about the perception of subject and object. Without this duality, there is no experiencer creating illusion. There is no center, there is Suchness, the purity of the way things are. It is impossible to grasp this through thought. Thinking as we know it, stops. This whole discussion is useless and goes against what the Buddha taught about taking no position. You cannot grasp this with your mind. That is what a scholar does, not what a Buddha does.
But the suttas describe a functional duality, since for example eye-consciousness only arises in dependence on vision and visible form, ie sense-base and sense-object ( not that different to a modern scientific understanding of human perception ). This functional duality is clearly and unambiguously described in MN18 and the Loka Sutta, which also describe how phassa ( contact or sense-impression ) is the meeting of the three.

As the suttas explain, the problem arises when we appropriate and cling to these, regarding them as me and mine. I think that is the basis of the subjective duality you refer to, it stems from craving and clinging to aspects of experience - to the aggregates, to the sense bases, and so on. So when self-view fades there is just experience, not the sense of "my experience" - I reckon that is what the Bahiya Sutta passage is describing, "In the seen, just the seen..."
Yes. This is why the arising of what is called the Dhamma Eye is essential. You enter into this duality, literally, and there is no problem associated with it. You are merely present and things happen. Things happen for a moment and they are gone, but you are present throughout all this movement and within all this movement. For me, this is an important juncture in one's practice.

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by ToVincent » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:26 pm

Spiny Norman wrote: So when self-view fades there is just experience, not the sense of "my experience" - I reckon that is what the Bahiya Sutta passage is describing, "In the seen, just the seen...".
It is not about experiencing something "fully", saying: "O!, this is not "I", this is not "mine"!". Let it come in! - Let it be so!

---

Sorry to have to get involved again. But that's what Mara likes people to believe. That's how he loves to possess people.

In fact, when self-view ceases, there is no more "I" to be found by me, in the khandhas and the dhatus of NāmaRūpa. like the people at the time of Buddha used to think (e.g. "I" am this tree, etc. - aka the Upaniṣadic (& later Hinduistic) universalism of the "I am Brahma" - "I am all this").
But that is not all there is to it. Far from it!
This is just the first necessary step. That is to say, the realization that the khandhas, and even the āyatanani, are not "ours" (SN 22.33 & 35.138).

So, there is not: just "experience", and not the sense of "my experience", as you put it wrongly.
As if - "this is not "my experience"" - was the end of it.
It is not about experiencing something "fully", saying: "O!, this is not "I", this is not "mine"!". Let it be!

That would be a fraud again; if one does not include the absolute necessity to restrain the indriyāni (indriyasaṃvarā), as the second necessary step (AN 4.14 & 69 - MN 33 - SN 35.94 & 127 & 244 & 246).
The uninstructed worldling who does not exercise restraint over the six fields of sensory experience of contact, indulges himself as much as he likes in the five cords (attachment - guṇā) of sensual pleasure. Assutavā puthujjano chasu phassāyatanesu asaṃvutakārī pañcasu kāmaguṇesu yāvadatthaṃ madaṃ āpajjati pamādaṃ āpajjati.
SN 35.246
A true Buddhist experience, as per Buddha's sayings, is about taking - also - the indriyani to their bare level (restraint) - so as to undergo those experiences with no sensory input.
The āyatanāni in saḷāyatana - external, then internal - must be brought down to nought, through the restraint of the indriyāni.

You have to see a Picasso's painting, as the forms, feelings, perception, etc., (the khandhas & dhatus) of Picasso; without getting involved sensorially with the experience.
Your consciousness must not be a "sense-consciousness", but just the mere consciousness of the object's khandhas and dhatus.
Like when one looks at the jealousy of another man, saying: "O!, this man is driven by a passion that makes him do things, that he should not do". The former does not have to get involved with the jealousy of the latter. He does not have to feel and renact the jealousy of that man.
If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached (lit. apart from what is connected - vi+saṃ+yujjati).
So sukhañce vedanaṃ vedayati, visaṃyutto naṃ vedayati
SN 22.88

This is what is meant by "in the seen, merely the seen".
And not just "I am experiencing it fully, knowing it is not "mine"".


And, by the way, it is not: "it's not "mine"". But "it's not "I"" - The "mine" comes later, if there is phassa and upādāna. (reading AN 4.199, might help you elucidate that).
Thinking of "mine" (upādāna), even "not mine", has already put you into phassa (transfer of properties of the khandhas).
You must first get off the "I"; then get off of any "sense-consciousness".

It is a bit like Brecht's "Verfremdungseffekt" - viz. a total estrangement from the experience. With a rational, and critical observation of this experience. With no sensory undergoing.

By doing so, one does not transfer the property (phassa) of the object's khandhas & dhatus to oneself. Does not crave for more of them (taṇhā); does not appropriate them (upādāna); does not become (like) them (bhāva); does not long for more of it (jāti).

There can't be transcendence from the kama loka, unto the rūpa loka, if there is not abandonment of the external. Period!
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by L.N. » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:32 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:34 am
L.N. wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:07 pm
Spiny Norman wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:20 am
... whether it is progressive or instantaneous.
What is the difference, if any?
Nidanas ceasing in succession over a period of time v. all nidanas ceasing at the same instant. I don't see how the nidana definitions in SN12.2 could support instantaneous cessation, ie all the nidanas ceasing when Nibbana is attained. Though all the nidanas ceasing when the Arahant dies might make sense.

The suttas in fact seem to describe a progressive cessation, as for example at the end of MN38, commencing with the cessation of delight and clinging.
According to the text and the commentarial interpretations Nibbàna, experienced by Sotàpannas, Sakadàgàmis, and Anàgàmis, is saupàdisesa- Nibbànadhàtu as they have the body and some passions still remaining. Nibbàna of the Arahants is also saupàdisesa- Nibbànadhàtu as they have the body still remaining. It is only the Nibbàna of the Arahants after their death that is termed anupàdisesa-Nibbànadhàtu because the aggregates and the passions are discarded by them.
Itivuttaka refers to these two kinds of Nibbàna, but mention is made only of Nibbàna comprehended by Arahants. It states:—
“These two Nibbàna-states are shown by Him Who seeth, who is such and unattached. One state is that in this same life possessed With base remaining, tho’ becoming’s stream Be cut off. While the state without a base Belongeth to the future, wherein all Becomings utterly do come to cease.”
Itivuttaka, p. 38. Woodward — As it was said, p. 143.
(See The Buddha and His Teachings)
Page 358 of http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf

It seems to me that "over a period of time" and "in the same instant" both are interpretations or mental constructions relating to concepts of time. Nibbana often is presented as "totally beyond the process of rebirth and the constraints of space and time" as discussed here.
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:27 am

ToVincent wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:26 pm
And, by the way, it is not: "it's not "mine"". But "it's not "I"" - The "mine" comes later, if there is phassa and upādāna. (reading AN 4.199, might help you elucidate that).
There are still sense impression for an Arahant - an Arahant still feels, sees hears etc. But how can there be sense impressions ( ie phassa ) without the functional meeting of sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousness? Don't forget that the mind is also a sense-base.
ToVincent wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:26 pm
By doing so, one does not transfer the property (phassa) of the object's khandhas & dhatus to oneself. Does not crave for more of them (taṇhā); does not appropriate them (upādāna); does not become (like) them (bhāva); does not long for more of it (jāti).
"Phassa" means "sense-impression", not "property". Craving and appropriation are certainly the issue, but these apply not just to the aggregates but also to contact and the functioning of the sense-bases. A couple of examples:

"At Savatthi. "Monks, any desire-passion with regard to contact at the eye is a defilement of the mind. Any desire-passion with regard to contact at the ear... contact at the nose... contact at the tongue... contact at the body... contact at the intellect is a defilement of the mind. When, with regard to these six bases, the defilements of awareness are abandoned, then the mind is inclined to renunciation. The mind fostered by renunciation feels malleable for the direct knowing of those qualities worth realizing."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in the eye, finds estrangement in forms, finds estrangement in eye-consciousness, finds estrangement in eye-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful- nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

You seem to be assuming that phassa has somehow ceased for the Arahant, but I don't think the suttas actually support that view. "Phassa" just means "sense-impression". What has ceased is desire-passion, craving, clinging, defilements etc.
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:31 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:27 am

There is still sense experience for an Arahant - an Arahant still feels, sees hears etc. But how can there be sense experience without phassa, the functional meeting of sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousness ( remembering that the mind is also a sense-base )?


Perhaps this will help explain a little more clearly, although it is a dreaded Mahayana explanation:
However in the Buddhist context the Illusion is not removed but rather seen as jnana itself-transformed into Jnana. And this Jnana is not something that is the support or base of samsara. It is the knowledge of the true mode of existence of samsara itself that is jnana. And furthermore samsara is not illusion which will vanish and only the Brahman will remain (Advaita belief). In Buddhism samsara is pratityasamutpanna like all illusion. So it is only like an illusion and cannot end. What ends is the wrong experience of it as really existing (skt. svabhava siddha). The jnana that is synonymous with liberation is not of an eternal unchanging Brahman beyond Samsara but rather of the true mode of existence of Samsara itself./quote]

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:05 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:31 am
Perhaps this will help explain a little more clearly, although it is a dreaded Mahayana explanation:
However in the Buddhist context the Illusion is not removed but rather seen as jnana itself-transformed into Jnana. And this Jnana is not something that is the support or base of samsara. It is the knowledge of the true mode of existence of samsara itself that is jnana. And furthermore samsara is not illusion which will vanish and only the Brahman will remain (Advaita belief). In Buddhism samsara is pratityasamutpanna like all illusion. So it is only like an illusion and cannot end. What ends is the wrong experience of it as really existing (skt. svabhava siddha). The jnana that is synonymous with liberation is not of an eternal unchanging Brahman beyond Samsara but rather of the true mode of existence of Samsara itself.
In Mahayana the Heart Sutra describes liberation via insight into sunyata, the lack of independent existence, dependent arising, conditionality.

Similarly there is the Sunna Sutta, which describes the sense-bases and contact as empty of self - again because they are dependently arising and conditional: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:15 am

L.N. wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:32 pm
It seems to me that "over a period of time" and "in the same instant" both are interpretations or mental constructions relating to concepts of time. Nibbana often is presented as "totally beyond the process of rebirth and the constraints of space and time" as discussed here.
Discussing Nibbana is tricky, though in the suttas it is most commonly described in terms of the cessation of the taints. But while ignorance and craving have ceased for an Arahant, I don't see support in the suttas for all the nidanas ceasing, or a complete collapse of pattica-samuppada at the attainment of Nibbana. It is more like the nidana sequence is interrupted when craving ceases, and then progressively winds down. The common refrain in the suttas is that "birth is exhausted", ie there is subsequent liberation from the cycle of birth and death ( bearing in mind the physical nidana definitions for birth, aging and death in SN12.2 and elsewhere ).

"When he finds estrangement, passion ( craving ) fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

It's far from clear from the suttas whether dukkha has entirely ceased for an Arahant, but that is probably another discussion. ;)
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:48 am

2600htz wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:50 pm
I think Arahants have a "new wheel" until they attain parinibbana, otherwise it would be impossible for them to function in the world. Once they attain parinibbana, the aggregates cant be put together anymore because they lack "moisture" (craving), so thats when all the 12 links cease once for all.
In their last existence they have a "wheel made of 6 spokes" compounded of formations, consciousness, mind-body, six senses, contact and feeling.
They don`t have any more ignorance, craving,clinging,becoming (or whatever u want to call that link), birth, aging,death, sorrow,lamentation,pain, grief & despair ever arising again.
:goodpost:

But isn't an Arahant still subject to pain, aging and death?
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:50 am

This is worth a look - I prefer "sense-impression" to "contact" as a rendering for phassa.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/phassa.htm
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by L.N. » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:37 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:48 am
But isn't an Arahant still subject to pain, aging and death?
The story of Angulimala would suggest that the answer most certainly is yes. The Buddha admonishes:
Bear it, brahmana, bear it, brahmana! You have experienced here and now the ripening of kamma whose ripening you might have experienced in hell over many a year, many a century, many a millennium.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el312.html

My understanding is that some suttas were delivered to lay persons and some to monastics. I have read that dependent origination was taught to monastics. It may be that for some audiences, the subject of dependent origination is more distracting than inspiring. From a very personal, individual perspective, I can see how an understanding of phassa as ceasing "instantaneously" might be inspiring for some, and also how an understanding of phassa as ceasing "progressively" might be inspiring for others. Practically speaking, better understanding comes with direct experience. Meanwhile, I think it's best to encourage one another to focus on what will be truly helpful along the path. For probably most of us here, that encouragement may include: keep on asking great questions, with an open mind, not wed to a preferred point of view.
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:39 pm

Spiny Norman" wrote: There are still sense impression for an Arahant - an Arahant still feels, sees hears etc. But how can there be sense impressions ( ie phassa ) without the functional meeting of sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousness? Don't forget that the mind is also a sense-base.
The problem with you, is that you make everything dependent on the activated, actuated and excited senses; like a Hume's freak.
Things can go through the āyatanāni (the fields of sensory experience), sifted through the restraint of the indriyani.
Anyway, as long as you, or an arahant experiences something in the kama loka; these experiences in the kama loka, will always go through the fields of sensory experiences (saḷāyatana & satta).

When the citta is totally freed, then the experience (of feeling and perception,) will go trough the citta only.
That is to say: before entering the fifth jhana level -(vanishing of perceptions (based) upon the organs of senses - paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā). Thre is no more perception of forms at that level - and for what I know, organs are also made of forms.

But that does not mean that an arahant, who has to go back to the level of the kama loka, won't have experiences through the fields of sensory experiences again.
It all depends in which loka he is dwelling in.
That does not mean either, that the arahant has to restrain the indriyani once again. Because that's acquired. Now maybe he will -if for instance he hurts himself badly, and the pain his excrutiating.

The answer to this question is partially in SN 22.47 & SN 22.89; and partially in what follows in the process.
And it is a bit tricky to understand. But, once you understand that, it makes perfect sense.
It is of the same nature than "you have to get through the paradoxical self, to get rid of the self".
But again, you have to put yourself in the context of what a "self" meant, in the time of Buddha. Which is not the case for most of the people around this forum.

We see in SN 22.47 that, it is the notion "I am", that triggers the notion "this is mine" (aka "this I am" - the external - "I am" the external). And that this notion "I am" should be uprooted first.
But at the same time - with no contradiction at all - we see in SN 22.89, that Khemaka has uprooted the notion "this is mine" (first); but not yet uprooted the notion "I am". And he does not consider himself an arahant yet.
You have to understand, as I said before in another post (viewtopic.php?f=41&t=29917&p=439475&hil ... le#p439475), that the "am" (asmi) is "said off" nāmarūpa (the external), and "present in" satta (the internal).
So what Khemaka understood first is the "said off". Then he had to understand the "present in". His difficulty was that, he understood that he was not the flower - but that the scent was still remaining in him.

To get thoroughly rid of the scent, one has also to attend and realize that the five aggregates of clinging are impermanent, etc.
At that point, and to that regard, one has attained the level of arahantship (SN 22.122).

And that is what I said before (but you don't seem to catch it) - that in SN 22.88:
If he feels a pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent’; he understands: ‘It is not held to’; he understands: ‘It is not delighted in.’ If he feels a painful feeling, he understands: ...
...
If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached (vi+saṃ+yujjati - apart from what is combined); if he feels a painful feeling, ...

Would that be clear enough?

----

An arahant is one who has done away with the three taints. And two of the latter - that is to say 1. craving for sensual pleasures / 2. craving for existence - are what I developped before - Viz.:
- 1. does not transfer the property (phassa) of the object's khandhas & dhatus to oneself (phassa) => no outward feelings believed to be one's own. (Note that the inward feelings will also have to be abandonned - when dealing with the rūpa loka).
- 2. does not long for more of it (jāti).

----

That "sense-impression" of yours, is just a questionable interpretation on your part. Backed up with no real "meat".
While the fact is, that the word phassa in Sanskrit texts, means "transfered possession" - both in the close pre-Buddhist text, that is the Chandogya Upaniṣad; and in the close post-Buddhist text, that is the Mahabharata. Which implies that this word had the meaning of "transfer of possesion" across Buddha's time.
Do not forget that Pali was the vernacular language of the time. And that Sanskrit was the higher philosophical language, on which Pali draw a lot - particularly when philosophy was involved - which Buddhism is all about.
That makes quite a higher probability that phassa meant "transfer of property", and that there is quite a lower probability, that your interpretation might be correct.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30370#p440038

And I think I have said it all.
And I think I have given enough factual evidences (suttas/sutras & applied lexicography).
And I think that you will remain in your "interpretations"; because this is what you just generally long for.
And I think that you will remain in your "interpretations"; because this is what you just particularly long for - viz. activated, actuated and excited sensory experiences.
Anyway, for what I can see, 99.99% of the "buddhist" folks, just don't want to get out of that kama loka. (And that is exactly what the Buddha said).
And that's their kamma.

And as far as "bare attention" is concerned; I would definitely not practice it, within your context.
Last edited by ToVincent on Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Mkoll
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Mkoll » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:59 pm

Along with the "great Nibbana=?" thread we need a "great nature of the arahant=?" and "great dependent origination=?" so these neverending philosophical diversions can be sequestered in one place. I feel like I've read a million threads just like this one.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

2600htz
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by 2600htz » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:02 pm

uote="Spiny Norman" post_id=440974 time=1507891712 user_id=1472]
2600htz wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:50 pm
I think Arahants have a "new wheel" until they attain parinibbana, otherwise it would be impossible for them to function in the world. Once they attain parinibbana, the aggregates cant be put together anymore because they lack "moisture" (craving), so thats when all the 12 links cease once for all.
In their last existence they have a "wheel made of 6 spokes" compounded of formations, consciousness, mind-body, six senses, contact and feeling.
They don`t have any more ignorance, craving,clinging,becoming (or whatever u want to call that link), birth, aging,death, sorrow,lamentation,pain, grief & despair ever arising again.
:goodpost:

But isn't an Arahant still subject to pain, aging and death?
[/quote]

Hello:

Its a tricky question.
But does an arahant have the self conceit to assume "i am this body, i am this feeling, i am this consciousness,etc." ?.
If not, who is actually concurring in pain, aging and death?. When the Buddha had back pain, it wasn´t his pain, it was just a pain.


Regards.

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bodom
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by bodom » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:39 pm

L.N. wrote:My understanding is that some suttas were delivered to lay persons and some to monastics. I have read that dependent origination was taught to monastics..
It was taught to both monastics and laypersons. See the Vera Sutta AN 10:92.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

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aflatun
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by aflatun » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:46 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:48 am
2600htz wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:50 pm
I think Arahants have a "new wheel" until they attain parinibbana, otherwise it would be impossible for them to function in the world. Once they attain parinibbana, the aggregates cant be put together anymore because they lack "moisture" (craving), so thats when all the 12 links cease once for all.
In their last existence they have a "wheel made of 6 spokes" compounded of formations, consciousness, mind-body, six senses, contact and feeling.
They don`t have any more ignorance, craving,clinging,becoming (or whatever u want to call that link), birth, aging,death, sorrow,lamentation,pain, grief & despair ever arising again.
:goodpost:

But isn't an Arahant still subject to pain, aging and death?
What subject ;) ?
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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L.N.
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by L.N. » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:16 am

bodom wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:39 pm
It was taught to both monastics and laypersons. See the Vera Sutta AN 10:92.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:thanks:
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

"You can indulge your hauteur and prissiness at someone else's expense." -- Ven. Dhammanando

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:05 am

Mkoll wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:59 pm
Along with the "great Nibbana=?" thread we need a "great nature of the arahant=?" and "great dependent origination=?" so these neverending philosophical diversions can be sequestered in one place. I feel like I've read a million threads just like this one.
Not a bad idea.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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