Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

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Spiny Norman
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Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:30 am

What is your understanding of phassa ( contact ), and what do you think the cessation of phassa entails, practically speaking?

"The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling..."
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"At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable."
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"However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification."
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:40 am

My understanding is dependent origination means every condition (nidana) is polluted by ignorance. For example, SN 22.81 has the term 'avijjā­samphas­sa­jena', which is translated as 'ignorant contact' or 'contact with ignorance'.
Regards form as self. That regarding, bhikkhus, is a formation.... When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, craving arises: thence that formation is born. SN 22.81
Therefore, my understanding is the cessation ('nirodha') of contact means ignorance ceases at contact; which is supported by the following suttas:
If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' SN 22.53
On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. MN 38
Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left. Iti 44
A few scholars, such as P.A. Payutto have suggested 'cessation' is a problematic translation for 'nirodha'. My understanding is don't get stuck on the English word 'cessation'.

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Zom » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:21 pm

What is your understanding of phassa ( contact ), and what do you think the cessation of phassa entails, practically speaking?
Practically speaking it is the end of any kind of experience, including cognition and feeling - the "core" of any kind of existence. What it entails? Well, if it is final and permanent cessation - it means the release from existence, repeated rounds of births and deaths. If it is temporary - it entails the direct knowledge that nothing inside you is permanent, including consiousness - because it can cease. This kind of knowledge removes the deepest ignorance and deepest craving to exist, thus letting you attain permanent cessation at the moment of death, which is, nibbana without residue.

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by chownah » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:56 pm

Contact is the arising of the conceit of self.....cessation of contact is the non-arising of the conceit of self.
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by L.N. » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:32 pm

Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:18 pm

Greetings Spiny,

Contact occurs when there is the volitional bifurcation of experience into "subject" and "object", and the "subject" becomes conscious of the "object". So, with that, two things, which are only regarded as distinct and separate due to ignorance, are said to come in contact with one another.

Cessation of contact occurs once that bifurcation into "sense" and "object" ceases. With no separation there are no two separate things to come in contact with one another any longer.

It is noteworthy in paticcasamuppada that contact is mentioned twice. Most obviously it comes after the establishment of the six-sense base, which corresponds with what is described as the "subject" in the last two paragraphs.

Also, contact is part of the "nama" in "nama-rupa". So if you prefer, the matter can also be represented and discerned via the nama-rupa / vinnana "vortex". This is a more useful mode of discernment if you're doing an exercise like the "walking through the park" exercise one we spoke of the other day, in real time, with many things going on at once. The standard phassa nidana is more useful when retrospectively reflecting upon the fabricated origins of what is presently being craved or clung to, and stepping back through the nidanas in reverse order to discern its empty nature. (You may recall in the suttas how this "stepping back" reflection is indeed how the Buddha came to understand paticcasamuppada in the first place)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by polarbear101 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:47 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:18 pm
Greetings Spiny,

Contact occurs when there is the volitional bifurcation of experience into "subject" and "object", and the "subject" becomes conscious of the "object". So, with that, two things, which are only regarded as distinct and separate due to ignorance, are said to come in contact with one another.

Cessation of contact occurs once that bifurcation into "sense" and "object" ceases. With no separation there are no two separate things to come in contact with one another any longer.

It is noteworthy in paticcasamuppada that contact is mentioned twice. Most obviously it comes after the establishment of the six-sense base, which corresponds with what is described as the "subject" in the last two paragraphs.

Also, contact is part of the "nama" in "nama-rupa". So if you prefer, the matter can also be represented and discerned via the nama-rupa / vinnana "vortex". This is a more useful mode of discernment if you're doing an exercise like the "walking through the park" exercise one we spoke of the other day, in real time, with many things going on at once. The standard phassa nidana is more useful when retrospectively reflecting upon the fabricated origins of what is presently being craved or clung to, and stepping back through the nidanas in reverse order to discern its empty nature. (You may recall in the suttas how this "stepping back" reflection is indeed how the Buddha came to understand paticcasamuppada in the first place)

Metta,
Paul. :)
So in your view, are arahants free of all contact?
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:34 pm

Greetings polarbear101,

More specifically, arahants are free of contact which is dependent upon avijja.

Arahants can still think in terms of "objects" but when doing so they have full knowledge, wisdom and comprehension, and are not confused by the nature of the object they have fashioned. (Consider in this context, MN1)

There is a technical term for this type of sankhara which is not dependent upon avijja, but I can't remember it off the top of my head. I recall seeing it mentioned in Nanananda's works, so next time I am in front of a PC and remember to do so, I will search for the term, so it can be discussed here.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:25 pm

Within the Sanskrit pre & post close Buddhist era texts (ChUp. & MBh.), the root meaning of phassa (sparśa), has the following meaning:
- Fall to the lot of, a.k.a. escheat - viz. a transfered possession (possession whose ownership changes).
- Come upon >> take possession of.
(Root spṛś)
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by SDC » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:03 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:34 pm
There are a technical term for this type of sankhara which is not dependent upon avijja, but I can't remember it off the top of my head. I recall seeing it mentioned in Nanananda's works, so next time I am in front of a PC and remember to do so, I will search for the term, so it can be discussed here.
Is it āyusaṅkhārā (conditions for life)? There is some debate on whether or not this dependence is within the realm of experience. I didn't have the time to get too in depth, but I know it appears in suttas in regard to "life vitality" in cessation of perception and feeling. Perhaps also in suttas about nutriment...

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:14 am

Greetings SDC,

Not sure, but I appreciate you finding a term which could be it, because now I can use word search and see if that's it. Otherwise, this may be something of a needle in the haystack operation. Nonetheless, it's an interesting subject and I'm happy to investigate and see what I find.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:43 am

Greetings,

Actually, the term I was looking for is suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ.

Ven. Nanananda translates this as "pure preparations"

I recommend reading the entire Nibbana Sermon 8, but to keep it short, here's a couple of key components relevant to what I explained above...
Usually, the worldlings attribute a certain degree of reality to concepts in everyday usage. These may be reckoned as mind-objects, things that the mind attends to. The word dhamma also means 'a thing', so the worldling thinks that there is some-'thing' in each of these concepts. Or, in other words, they believe that there is some-thing as an inherent nature or essence in these objects of the mind.

But the quotation in question seems to imply that this so-called nature is not registered in the arahant's mind. It is extremely necessary for the worldling to think that there is some real nature in these mind-objects. Why? Because in order to think of them as objects they have to have some essence, at least they must be invested with an essence, and so the worldlings do invest them with some sort of an essence, and that is the earthiness of earth, the wateriness of water, (etc.). Likewise there is a being-hood in beings, a deva-hood in devas, a Pajāpati-hood in Pajāpati, a Brahma-hood in Brahma, so much so that even in the concept of all, there is an all-ness - and this is the worldlings' standpoint.

Attributing a reality to whatever concept that comes up, the worldlings create for themselves perceptions of permanence, perceptions of the beautiful, and perceptions of self. In other words, they objectify these concepts in terms of craving, conceit and views. That objectification takes the form of some inherent nature attributed to them, such as earthiness, deva-hood (etc.).

But as for the non-manifestative consciousness, it is free from the so-called natures that delude the worldlings. In the consciousness of the arahants, there is not that infatuation with regard to the mass of concepts which the worldlings imagine as real, in order to keep going this drama of existence. This fact is clearly borne out by another statement in the Brahmanimantanikasutta. The Buddha makes the following declaration, to break the conceit ofBaka the Brahma, who conceived the idea of permanence regarding his status as a Brahma:

Paṭhaviṃ kho ahaṃ, brahme, paṭhavito abhiññāya yāvatā paṭhaviyā paṭhavittena ananubhūtaṃ tadabhiññāya paṭhaviṃ nāhosim, paṭhaviyā nāhosiṃ, paṭhavito nāhosiṃ, paṭhaviṃ me'ti nāhosiṃ, paṭhaviṃ nābhivadiṃ

"Having understood through higher knowledge earth as earth, O Brahma," (that is to say having understood by means of a special kind of knowledge, and not by means of the ordinary sense-perception) "and having understood through higher knowledge whatever that does not partake of the earthiness of earth", (the reference here is to that non-manifestative consciousness, which is to be described in the passage to follow) "I did not claim to be earth",paṭhaviṃ nāhosim, "I did not claim to be on earth", paṭhaviyā nāhosiṃ, "I did not claim to be from earth", paṭhavito nāhosiṃ, "I did not claim earth as mine", paṭhaviṃ me'ti nāhosiṃ, "I did not assert earth", paṭhaviṃ nābhivadiṃ.

The declensional forms given here are also suggestive of the fact that once the worldlings attribute some inherent nature to those concepts in terms of a 'ness', as in earthy-ness, and make them amenable to their cravings, conceits and views, declensional forms come into usage, a few instances of which have been mentioned here. So, with regard to this earth, one can conceive of it as 'my earth', or as 'I am on earth', or 'I who am on the earth', or 'from the earth'. By holding on tenaciously to these declensional forms of one's own creation, one is only asserting one's ego.

Now, for instance, we all know that what is called 'a flower' is something that can fade away. But when one conceives of it as 'The-flower-I-saw', and thereby appropriates it into the concept of an I, it gets invested with the nature of permanence, since it can be 're-called'. A perception of permanence which enables one to think about it again, arises out of it. This is the idea behind the above reference.

It is in the nature of the released mind not to take these concepts seriously. It does not have a tenacious grasp on these declensional forms. It is convinced of the fact that they are mere conventions in ordinary usage. Due to that conviction itself, it is not subject to them. "I did not claim to be earth, I did not claim to be on earth, I did not claim to be from earth, I did not claim earth as mine, I did not assert earth", paṭhaviṃ nābhivadiṃ.
Suddhaṃ dhammasamuppādaṃ,
suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ,
passantassa yathābhūtaṃ,
na bhayaṃ hoti gāmani.
"To one who sees the arising of pure phenomena and the sequence of pure preparations as it is, there is no fear, oh headman".

This verse, too, has a depth of meaning, which we shall now try to elucidate.

Why are the phenomena qualified by the word pure, suddha dhamma, in this context? Because the mind-objects, which are generally regarded as dhamma by the world, are impure. Why are they impure? Because they are 'influenced' by influxes. Now here we have 'uninfluenced' or influx-free phenomena. To the arahant's mind the objects of the world occur free of influxes. That is to say, they do not go to build up a prepared, saṅkhata. They are quasi-preparations. They do not go to build up a film show.

If, for instance, one who is seeing a film show, has the full awareness of the artificiality of those library-shots which go to depict a tragic scene on the screen, without being carried away by the latency to ignorance, one will not be able to 'enjoy' the film show. In fact, the film show does not exist for him. The film show has 'ceased' for him.

Similarly, the arahant sees phenomena as pure phenomena. Those mind-objects arise only to cease, that is all. They are merely a series of preparations, suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ. 'The film reel is just being played' - that is the way it occurs to him. Therefore, "to one who sees all this, there is no fear, oh headman".
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:56 am

Greetings ToVincent,
ToVincent wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:25 pm
Within the Sanskrit pre & post close Buddhist era texts (ChUp. & MBh.), the root meaning of phassa (sparśa), has the following meaning:
- Fall to the lot of, a.k.a. escheat - viz. a transfered possession (possession whose ownership changes).
- Come upon >> take possession of.
(Root spṛś)
That lines up very nicely with Nanavira Thera's excellent explanation of phassa.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by justindesilva » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:55 am

Phassa is only the original stand of a thought process followed by vedana sanna sankara vingnana which transits to akusala mula or kusala mula transcending to karma. Hence phassa cannot be analysed as a word by itself. It is a link in a chain of thoughts.
Passa that makes way to thoughts would cease with the stoppage in paticca samuppada when thoughts are free from Loba dhosa or moha or at samma Samadhi as of an arhant. ( also see arya salini)

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:34 pm
Greetings polarbear101,

More specifically, arahants are free of contact which is dependent upon avijja.

Arahants can still think in terms of "objects" but when doing so they have full knowledge, wisdom and comprehension, and are not confused by the nature of the object they have fashioned. (Consider in this context, MN1)

There is a technical term for this type of sankhara which is not dependent upon avijja, but I can't remember it off the top of my head. I recall seeing it mentioned in Nanananda's works, so next time I am in front of a PC and remember to do so, I will search for the term, so it can be discussed here.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Correct me if I am wrong, but according to Nanananda, the arising of consciousness is caused by nama and rupa. When consciousness forms the triad, contact is born. Consciousness is the discernment, which to my mind means it is conditioned because subject and object are discerned. The removal of ignorance would be the condition where consciousness is eliminated in any personal sense and the magical illusion is kaput. There would be no experience possible, therefore, no influxes at all. This seems to be Buddhahood and omniscience where the nature of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self are actual. What do you think?

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by L.N. » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:18 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:43 am
suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:34 pm
... this type of sankhara which is not dependent upon avijja ...
The most important fact to understand about sankharas, as conditioned formations, is that they are all impermanent: "Impermanent, alas, are formations." They are impermanent not only in the sense that in their gross manifestations they will eventually come to an end, but even more pointedly because at the subtle, subliminal level they are constantly undergoing rise and fall, forever coming into being and then, in a split second, breaking up and perishing: "Their very nature is to arise and vanish." For this reason the Buddha declares that all sankharas are suffering (sabbe sankhara dukkha) — suffering, however, not because they are all actually painful and stressful, but because they are stamped with the mark of transience. "Having arisen they then cease," and because they all cease they cannot provide stable happiness and security.

To win complete release from suffering — not only from experiencing suffering, but from the unsatisfactoriness intrinsic to all conditioned existence — we must gain release from sankharas. And what lies beyond the sankharas is that which is not constructed, not put together, not compounded.
link
It must, of course, be remembered that phassanirodha in the arahat does not mean that experience as such (pañcakkhandhā) is at an end. But, also, there is no experience without phassa.
link
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

"You can indulge your hauteur and prissiness at someone else's expense." -- Ven. Dhammanando

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:15 am

ToVincent wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:25 pm
Within the Sanskrit pre & post close Buddhist era texts (ChUp. & MBh.), the root meaning of phassa (sparśa), has the following meaning:
- Fall to the lot of, a.k.a. escheat - viz. a transfered possession (possession whose ownership changes).
- Come upon >> take possession of.
(Root spṛś)
From MN 148:
Now, bhikkhus, this is the way leading to the cessation of identity. One regards the eye thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ One regards forms thus…One regards eye-consciousness thus…One regards eye-contact thus…One regards feeling thus…One regards craving thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one does not sorrow, grieve and lament, does not weep beating one’s breast and become distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion does not lie within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one understands as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is possible.
From SN 35.85
Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:18 am

Greetings Saengnapha,

I would respond, but the second quote provided by L.N. above of Nanavira Thera pretty much covers it...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:19 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:40 am
My understanding is dependent origination means every condition (nidana) is polluted by ignorance. For example, SN 22.81 has the term 'avijjā­samphas­sa­jena', which is translated as 'ignorant contact' or 'contact with ignorance'.
Regards form as self. That regarding, bhikkhus, is a formation.... When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, craving arises: thence that formation is born. SN 22.81
Therefore, my understanding is the cessation ('nirodha') of contact means ignorance ceases at contact; which is supported by the following suttas:
I'm not sure I understand. You seem to be saying that it is only ignorance which ceases, and that contact continues? Do the rest of the nidanas also continue? This doesn't sound right, looking at dependent origination in cessation mode as described in the suttas..
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Phassa and the cessation of phassa?

Post by Spiny Norman » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:25 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:34 pm
More specifically, arahants are free of contact which is dependent upon avijja.
Again, I struggle with this interpretation because the suttas clearly describe a progressive cessation of all the nidanas. Are you saying that it is only ignorance which ceases and that the rest of the nidanas continue? Or that ignorance and some other nidanas cease - and if so, which ones?

As I understand it Nibbana involves the cessation of the taints, so it involves the cessation of craving. But it doesn't appear to involve the cessation of feeling. As the suttas describe it, feeling only arises in dependence on contact, so it would seem that Nibbana doesn't involve the cessation of contact either.


"At Savatthi. "Monks, any desire-passion with regard to feeling born of contact at the eye is a defilement of the mind. Any desire-passion with regard to feeling born of contact at the ear... feeling born of contact at the nose... feeling born of contact at the tongue... feeling born of contact at the body... feeling born of contact at the intellect is a defilement of the mind. When, with regard to these six bases, the defilements of awareness are abandoned, then the mind is inclined to renunciation. The mind fostered by renunciation feels malleable for the direct knowing of those qualities worth realizing."
SN 27.5: Vedana Sutta — Feeling
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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