What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

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Tom
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What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

Post by Tom » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:27 pm

As far as I understand, nagas are animals right (and thus unable to attain stream entry)? Or are they devas or something else?
Also are there non-Deva animals that live in the Deva planes?

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L.N.
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Re: What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

Post by L.N. » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:49 am

Once a Naga, a powerful serpent who can take the form of a human being, was mistakenly ordained as a monk. Shortly after, when asleep in his hut, the naga returned to the shape of a huge snake. The monk who shared the hut was somewhat alarmed when he woke up to see a great snake sleeping next to him! The Lord Buddha summoned the naga and told him he may not remain as a monk, at which the utterly disconsolate snake began to weep. The snake was given the Five Precepts as the means to attaining a human existence in his next life when he can then be a monk. Then out of compassion for the sad snake, the Lord Buddha said that from then on all candidates for the monkhood be called 'Naga' as a consolation. They are still called 'Naga' to this day.
Source.

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Dhammanando
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Re: What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:27 am

Tom wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:27 pm
As far as I understand, nagas are animals right (and thus unable to attain stream entry)? Or are they devas or something else?
Nāgas are super-animals.
Tom wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:27 pm
Also are there non-Deva animals that live in the Deva planes?
Most Indian Buddhist schools, including the Theravada, held that animal-like beings in the sensual heavens are devas in animal form, not animals. The Andhakan school dissented, holding for example that the elephant-shaped deva Erāvaṇa in the Heaven of the Thirty-Three was an actual elephant.
On retreat and offline May 22 - July 10.

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solitarius semet ipse domans
in sylva extrema delectatus sit.“

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Tom
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Re: What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

Post by Tom » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:54 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:27 am
Tom wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:27 pm
As far as I understand, nagas are animals right (and thus unable to attain stream entry)? Or are they devas or something else?
Nāgas are super-animals.
Tom wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:27 pm
Also are there non-Deva animals that live in the Deva planes?
Most Indian Buddhist schools, including the Theravada, held that animal-like beings in the sensual heavens are devas in animal form, not animals. The Andhakan school dissented, holding for example that the elephant-shaped deva Erāvaṇa in the Heaven of the Thirty-Three was an actual elephant.
Are supaṇṇas also animals?

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Dhammanando
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Re: What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:10 am

Tom wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:54 am
Are supaṇṇas also animals?
The commentaries classify supaṇṇas/garuḷas/garuḍas as birds, which would place them in the animal realm. But since, like nāgas, they have the power to assume human form, I would be inclined to call them super-animals too.
On retreat and offline May 22 - July 10.

„Sedem solitariam, cubitum solitarium
solitarius colens non segnis,
solitarius semet ipse domans
in sylva extrema delectatus sit.“

(Dhammapada 305. tr. Viggo Fausbøll. 1855)

Tom
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Re: What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

Post by Tom » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:39 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:10 am
Tom wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:54 am
Are supaṇṇas also animals?
The commentaries classify supaṇṇas/garuḷas/garuḍas as birds, which would place them in the animal realm. But since, like nāgas, they have the power to assume human form, I would be inclined to call them super-animals too.
Interesting, thank you Bhante
1. Are there any other "super-animals" mentioned in the canon or commentaries?
2. There is mention of some nāgas observing the uposatha, can other animals do this?
3. Also, can I help my dog toward the path to enlightenment?

paul
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Re: What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

Post by paul » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:40 am

The inconsistent appearance of the naga in Theravada can be explained by Prof. Gombrich’s theory that it was introduced as a strategy to counter existing naga worship:

“-we can surmise that just as Buddhism was competing with brahmanism and with other groups of renunciates, it was competing with naga worship and using the same technique of appropriating the opponent’s terms and infusing them with a new meaning.”—-“How Buddhism Began: The Conditioned Genesis of the Early Teachings”; Richard F. Gombrich, 1996.

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Aloka
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Re: What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

Post by Aloka » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:07 am

.

I think nagas also feature in Hindu mythology.

In Tibetan Buddhism Nagarjuna was given that particular name because he was said to have recovered the Buddha’s teachings on the Perfection of Wisdom from the naga-king who guarded them in the naga-realm.

more about nagas here:
The Indian mahasiddha, Nagarjuna, received his illuminating insights and tantric empowerment with the help of the nagas in the lake beside which he meditated. Nagarjuna is one of the main champions of Buddhist philosophy, and is traditionally portrayed with a sunshade or halo formed by a multi-headed serpent. He is called the Second Buddha, partly in tribute to his having established the Madhyamaka [Middle-Way, ie. neither materialist nor nihilist nor idealist] school of philosophy.

http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm
:reading:

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Aloka
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Re: What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

Post by Aloka » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:27 am

Tom wrote:. Also, can I help my dog toward the path to enlightenment?
Gently teach him not to kill other living things and always show him kindness.


:anjali:

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Dhammanando
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Re: What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:31 am

Tom wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:39 am
1. Are there any other "super-animals" mentioned in the canon or commentaries?
There are enormous sea creatures like the Timi, the Timiṅgala and the Timirapiṅgala of the Pahārada Sutta, and the even more enormous Ānanda, Timinda, Ajjhāroha, and Mahātimi of the commentaries. Possibly also kiṇṇaras and kiṇṇarīs, though I'm not entirely sure if these are classed as animals.

Most of the other creatures mentioned from time to time (kumbhaṇḍas, kumbhaṇḍīs, pisācas, yakkhas, rakkhasas, gandhabbas, vidyadharas, etc.) are subsumed under devas, petas, asuras, or humans belonging to exotic (non-Aryan) tribes.
Tom wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:39 am
2. There is mention of some nāgas observing the uposatha, can other animals do this?
The Sasa Jātaka reports a hare, a monkey, a jackal and an otter doing so. Though the animals in question were rather special, being the Buddha, Sāriputta, Moggallāna and Ānanda in former lives. It may not necessarily be a possibility for every animal of these species.
Tom wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:39 am
3. Also, can I help my dog toward the path to enlightenment?
Yes, you can take advantage of all four of the ways that a dog learns, but especially observational learning for encouraging Dhamma-compatible allelomimetic behaviour in the dog, and Skinnerian operant conditioning to ensure that if the dog encounters the Dhamma in a future life as a human he'll be positively disposed towards it.

How Dogs Learn
On retreat and offline May 22 - July 10.

„Sedem solitariam, cubitum solitarium
solitarius colens non segnis,
solitarius semet ipse domans
in sylva extrema delectatus sit.“

(Dhammapada 305. tr. Viggo Fausbøll. 1855)

Tom
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Re: What realm do nagas belong to? And are there animals that live in the worlds of the devas?

Post by Tom » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:03 pm

Can human beings see nagas or these other super-animals somehow?

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