Guilt and Shame

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Pseudobabble
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Re: Guilt and Shame

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:55 pm

Vitakkasanthana Sutta wrote: Like a well-dressed young man or woman who feels horrified, humiliated and disgusted because of the carcass of a snake, dog, or human that is hung round his or her neck, should the bhikkhu in whom unskillful thoughts continue to arise in spite of his reflection on the object which is connected with skill, ponder on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts thus: Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, blameworthy, and productive of misery. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).
The same pericope is repeated many times throughout the suttas.

Imagine how you would feel if you came to, and found yourself sitting in the street, smearing sh*t on yourself. That is how we should feel upon discovering ourselves participating in unskillful thinking and behaviour. That's how I interpret shame in a Dhammic context.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

Saengnapha
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Re: Guilt and Shame

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:28 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:55 pm

Imagine how you would feel if you came to, and found yourself sitting in the street, smearing sh*t on yourself. That is how we should feel upon discovering ourselves participating in unskillful thinking and behaviour. That's how I interpret shame in a Dhammic context.
Is this how we respect and care for ourselves according to your view of things? It sounds extreme to me, in fact, it stinks! ;)

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Guilt and Shame

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:37 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:28 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:55 pm

Imagine how you would feel if you came to, and found yourself sitting in the street, smearing sh*t on yourself. That is how we should feel upon discovering ourselves participating in unskillful thinking and behaviour. That's how I interpret shame in a Dhammic context.
Is this how we respect and care for ourselves according to your view of things? It sounds extreme to me, in fact, it stinks! ;)
Maybe you have misunderstood. Shame is a natural response to failing your own standards. If I found myself in the situation you've quoted, I'd feel shame, just as I feel it when discovering myself lying, or similar.

EDIT: I just came back to the post and appreciate the little joke ;) :D
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

Saengnapha
Posts: 1338
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Guilt and Shame

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:20 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:37 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:28 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:55 pm

Imagine how you would feel if you came to, and found yourself sitting in the street, smearing sh*t on yourself. That is how we should feel upon discovering ourselves participating in unskillful thinking and behaviour. That's how I interpret shame in a Dhammic context.
Is this how we respect and care for ourselves according to your view of things? It sounds extreme to me, in fact, it stinks! ;)
Maybe you have misunderstood. Shame is a natural response to failing your own standards. If I found myself in the situation you've quoted, I'd feel shame, just as I feel it when discovering myself lying, or similar.

EDIT: I just came back to the post and appreciate the little joke ;) :D
You are quite right, I misunderstood your analogy. But, maybe we do over exaggerate our responses to the 'standards' we set for ourselves. Honesty is always the best action. If one cannot be honest in our dealings with others, that creates problems. Guilt and shame are learned through our societies. They are reactions, nothing more or less. It is like a fart. Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?

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robertk
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Re: Guilt and Shame

Post by robertk » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:35 am



It is like a fart. Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct
Well, I'll leave that question up to the philosophers.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Guilt and Shame

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:42 am

robertk wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:35 am


Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?
Well, I'll leave that question up to the philosophers.
Its like a Zen koan.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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robertk
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Re: Guilt and Shame

Post by robertk » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:36 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:42 am
robertk wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:35 am


Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?
Well, I'll leave that question up to the philosophers.
Its like a Zen koan.
:twothumbsup:

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Pseudobabble
Posts: 671
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Location: London

Re: Guilt and Shame

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:04 am

robertk wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:36 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:42 am
robertk wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:35 am

Well, I'll leave that question up to the philosophers.
Its like a Zen koan.
:twothumbsup:
I'm gonna go ahead and put it in my signature.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

Saengnapha
Posts: 1338
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Guilt and Shame

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:59 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:04 am
robertk wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:36 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:42 am


Its like a Zen koan.
:twothumbsup:
I'm gonna go ahead and put it in my signature.
:rofl:

Saengnapha
Posts: 1338
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Guilt and Shame

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:57 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:42 am
robertk wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:35 am


Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?
Well, I'll leave that question up to the philosophers.
Its like a Zen koan.
"Other sciences are "scarcely worth a FART-HING." Ben Franklin in reference to his famous letter on farting.

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