Abortion poll

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Your opinion on abortion

Morally against abortion and anti-choice
13
33%
Morally against abortion and pro-choice
17
44%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice for the first 8 weeks (embryo)
3
8%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the start of second trimester (3 mos. pregnant)
3
8%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the start of third trimester (6 mos. pregnant)
2
5%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the delivery (9 mos. pregnant)
1
3%
 
Total votes: 39

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11554
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Abortion poll

Post by DNS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:42 pm

After all the abortion topics we have had here, I don't believe anyone has made a poll yet, so here goes . . .

Options based off of clw_uk's thread here:
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30243
(with additional options added)

WontonCarter
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 4:03 am

Re: Abortion poll

Post by WontonCarter » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:46 pm

Pro-choice. No statement on abortion itself. I'd rather not be involved.

EDIT: Just...rewrote it.
Last edited by WontonCarter on Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19504
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Abortion poll

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:48 pm

Greetings,

Tough to capture all the permutations and combinations in a poll!

I certainly think it's acceptable (embryo stage) in instances of conception arising from non-consensual sex.

Beyond that, it's varying shades of grey...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Abortion poll

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:03 am

I voted "up until the start of the 3rd trimester" as I believe that is when "consciousness has descended". That's based upon my limited understanding of fetal development (I'm not an expert)
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11554
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Abortion poll

Post by DNS » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:22 am

retrofuturist wrote: Tough to capture all the permutations and combinations in a poll!
I certainly think it's acceptable (embryo stage) in instances of conception arising from non-consensual sex.
Beyond that, it's varying shades of grey...
Very true! There are all kinds of possibilities, for example one might be anti-choice under normal circumstances but then pro-choice where there is non-consensual sex, as you noted. And then there are more possibilities, including if the mother's life is in danger (carrying to term) or the baby's life is in danger or if the fetus has deformities and I'm sure several more.

I remember hearing of a story last year of a Sri Lankan woman who was a worker in Saudi Arabia who was forced to carry to term her stillborn (dead) baby. Unfortunately the mother died delivering the baby. She had requested an 'abortion' but was denied. Clearly that is anti-choice gone too far since the fetus was already dead.

So for the sake of this poll, let's assume there is consensual sex and no known health problems in the mother or baby.

befriend
Posts: 1197
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Abortion poll

Post by befriend » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:54 am

There are any number of diseases and circumstances that could happen to someone in their life that could alter there entire existence id rather raise an unwanted human than be blind or have leprosy cancer etc... People get pissed when life doesn't go there way, life isn't under your control you don't have control over your own life what gives someone the right try to control someone else's life?
rest

befriend
Posts: 1197
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Abortion poll

Post by befriend » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:19 am

id like to leave this world without having anything of that gravity on my conscience not getting an abortion protects someone from serious remorse as well as those to be born. wishing in gladness and in safety may all beings be at ease wether they are weak or strong medium short or tall those seen and unseen those living near or far away those born and to be born May all beings be at ease.
rest

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1836
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Abortion poll

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:44 am

clw_uk wrote:I voted "up until the start of the 3rd trimester" as I believe that is when "consciousness has descended".
This sounds like a belief in Tibetan rather than Theravada reincarnation; that the re-linking consciousness or bardo floats around on a slight-seeing tour for a while, before the re-linking consciousness makes an evaluation to choose its parents. Doesn't Theravada say the re-linking consciousness from the 2nd to 3rd link in dependent origination happen very quickly?

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Abortion poll

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:04 am

DooDoot wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I voted "up until the start of the 3rd trimester" as I believe that is when "consciousness has descended".
This sounds like a belief in Tibetan rather than Theravada reincarnation; that the re-linking consciousness or bardo floats around on a slight-seeing tour for a while, before the re-linking consciousness makes an evaluation to choose its parents. Doesn't Theravada say the re-linking consciousness from the 2nd to 3rd link in dependent origination happen very quickly?
Why would it be floating around?
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
BasementBuddhist
Posts: 281
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:03 pm

Re: Abortion poll

Post by BasementBuddhist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:59 am

I think that Abortion is morally suspect, but it isn't my choice to make. It isn't my right to determine what women do with their bodies, ultimately, they are the ones that give birth and are expected to care for the child in most cases.

ieee23
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 12:40 am

Re: Abortion poll

Post by ieee23 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:02 am

A man, Pro choice, do not see a moral problem with abortion.
Last edited by ieee23 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. - MN 19

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Abortion poll

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:02 am

BasementBuddhist wrote:I think that Abortion is morally suspect, but it isn't my choice to make. It isn't my right to determine what women do with their bodies, ultimately, they are the ones that give birth and are expected to care for the child in most cases.
If it is the killing of a living human being, aren't we obligated to oppose it (not just as Buddhists but as citizens)?
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
BasementBuddhist
Posts: 281
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:03 pm

Re: Abortion poll

Post by BasementBuddhist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:01 am

clw_uk wrote:
BasementBuddhist wrote:I think that Abortion is morally suspect, but it isn't my choice to make. It isn't my right to determine what women do with their bodies, ultimately, they are the ones that give birth and are expected to care for the child in most cases.
If it is the killing of a living human being, aren't we obligated to oppose it (not just as Buddhists but as citizens)?

No. Buddhism (I believe) has no idea of moral obligation, this is an idea we get from western religions. We can oppose abortion, we can support it. Neither of these is "wrong". Wrong is a personal opinion, like hot or cold, hard or soft. Buddhism is about truth, not opinion. Now, abortion causes suffering, yes, but suffering is not the enemy, suffering is suffering, it is the first noble truth and a part of life. We make choices in Buddhism, not because they are right and wrong, or because they produce suffering or pleasure, but because they promote either wisdom or ignorance. And even then, if you don't care about the path, choose ignorance. We are obligated by nothing. There are no moral absolutes, and if you believe there are, you do not understand the Dhamma. Kamma is not a law of morals, but of choices and results.

Who am I to tell a woman not to get an abortion? Who am I to say that she has to have a child she doesn't want? If she comes to me and asks me what to do, of course I'll tell her to keep it, but it is her choice and hers alone, and the choice she makes is the choice she makes. She'll have to endure the karmic consequences of that choice, sure, but it is just a choice.

Buddhism is not about greater or lesser, a choice is a choice. Choices have consequences. Dispassion is a requirement for enlightenment.

User avatar
binocular
Posts: 5217
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Abortion poll

Post by binocular » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:34 am

David N. Snyder wrote:I remember hearing of a story last year of a Sri Lankan woman who was a worker in Saudi Arabia who was forced to carry to term her stillborn (dead) baby. Unfortunately the mother died delivering the baby. She had requested an 'abortion' but was denied. Clearly that is anti-choice gone too far since the fetus was already dead.
Do you remember more details?
As far as I know, even Catholic hospitals (which will not perform an abortion of a live embryo or fetus) still induce the delivery of the dead embryo or fetus.

davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Abortion poll

Post by davidbrainerd » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:52 am

binocular wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:I remember hearing of a story last year of a Sri Lankan woman who was a worker in Saudi Arabia who was forced to carry to term her stillborn (dead) baby. Unfortunately the mother died delivering the baby. She had requested an 'abortion' but was denied. Clearly that is anti-choice gone too far since the fetus was already dead.
Do you remember more details?
As far as I know, even Catholic hospitals (which will not perform an abortion of a live embryo or fetus) still induce the delivery of the dead embryo or fetus.
Of course. The kind of thing in that quote is just lies abortionists make up to excuse murder. If the baby is already dead its not an abortion.

HOWEVER, a Sri Lankan woman in Saudi Arabia may very well have been forced to carry to term a dead baby, out of pure Arab racism against Sri Lankans. That is believable. But it certainly has nothing to do with views on abortion. After all, Muslims are fine with killing anyone, babies included.

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3922
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Cremation Ground, Phrao District, Chiangmai

Re: Abortion poll

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:15 pm

binocular wrote:As far as I know, even Catholic hospitals (which will not perform an abortion of a live embryo or fetus) still induce the delivery of the dead embryo or fetus.
I think David might have in mind the case of Savita Halappanavar, though it was actually an Indian Tamil woman and the country was Ireland. (Under Saudi law an abortion would probably have been permitted in identical circumstances).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_ ... lappanavar

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... on-midwife

justindesilva
Posts: 623
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Abortion poll

Post by justindesilva » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:50 pm

An embryo in the womb is somebody's karma. No body else has the right to either destroy or meddle with it except nature.

User avatar
BasementBuddhist
Posts: 281
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:03 pm

Re: Abortion poll

Post by BasementBuddhist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:55 pm

justindesilva wrote:An embryo in the womb is somebody's karma. No body else has the right to either destroy or meddle with it except nature.
Aren't human beings a part of nature?

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2675
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Abortion poll

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:59 pm

It could have had more options:
ok with mother killing child up to one month after birth.

ok with mother lilling child up to 5 years old.

dharmacorps
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Abortion poll

Post by dharmacorps » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:31 pm

there are 2 issues here, one is how you morally feel about abortion, and the other is what kind of laws you advocate (pro choice or pro life). Pro choice would mean people should be able to choose if they want to abort a fetus, which is in effect killing from a Buddhist perspective. Being pro life would mean advocating that nobody should be permitted to have abortions. But in reality, even if abortion were banned, people would have illegal abortions.

Being pro-choice I suppose could be construed as encouraging or at least permitting people to kill. Being pro-life could mean you are trying to legislate morality. In some ways, the law does try to do that-- e.g. prostitution, drugs, etc.

Personally, I believe abortion is wrong and I would discourage anyone from having one. The fact 800k abortions were performed in the US last year is horrifying. Its being used as a form of birth control and treated very casually by people. I think this is a lack of reverence for life. Can we legislate our way out of this problem? I don't know. I'm not sure what you do about that. This is part of why I didn't vote on this poll. Its far too complex to say pro-choice or pro-life. These are very complex issues which can't be distilled into mutable political stances.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: denise, justindesilva and 82 guests