Abortion poll

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Your opinion on abortion

Morally against abortion and anti-choice
13
33%
Morally against abortion and pro-choice
18
45%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice for the first 8 weeks (embryo)
3
8%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the start of second trimester (3 mos. pregnant)
3
8%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the start of third trimester (6 mos. pregnant)
2
5%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the delivery (9 mos. pregnant)
1
3%
 
Total votes: 40

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:20 pm

i just am not seeing your logic here. kind of an empty declaration
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Stiphan
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by Stiphan » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:26 pm

Sovatthika wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:20 pm
i just am not seeing your logic here. kind of an empty declaration
My logic is simple: male issues should be decided by men, female issues by women.

Since I am not a woman, and I said enough, I bow out.

Take care, friend.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:30 pm

if you asked should there be a central agency that makes decisions over anyone's life, then my answer might be no
currently tho the government is definitely subsidizing and promoting abortion. kind of a eugenics program

typed that before you responded and so got the prompt. well, that's not really logic; logic would be more like because this which we accept to be true is true it is implied that [conclusion or series of conclusions] by x line of reasoning is/are also true
i could as easily say female issues should be decided by men and male issues by women and if we accepted your statement as valid mine would also have to be valid
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Stiphan
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by Stiphan » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:02 pm

Sovatthika wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:30 pm
if you asked should there be a central agency that makes decisions over anyone's life, then my answer might be no
currently tho the government is definitely subsidizing and promoting abortion. kind of a eugenics program

typed that before you responded and so got the prompt. well, that's not really logic; logic would be more like because this which we accept to be true is true it is implied that [conclusion or series of conclusions] by x line of reasoning is/are also true
i could as easily say female issues should be decided by men and male issues by women and if we accepted your statement as valid mine would also have to be valid
Because it's their bodies sovatthika. A male has never given birth and cannot quite understand from his own experience what it's like to carry a being in one's womb and there is no risk for his health from abortion.

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dylanj
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by dylanj » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:05 pm

ieee23 wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:16 pm
maranadhammomhi wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:15 am
why do i have to have a political stance? would prefer just the ethical one
If you don't participate in the process of making a choice, a choice will be made for you.

Being "not political" is a privilege for people who will not be effected by whatever decision is made and who will not care what happens to others.

No disrespect.
Can you back this up with something the Buddha said?

Anyway, if I have to pick a political position it will be anti-choice.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:35 pm

say i said, because it's my body i can go around cock-slapping anyone i like. who would a woman be to tell me i cant do that
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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perkele
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by perkele » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:58 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:01 pm
How can I possibly vote? I am a man. It should be up to the woman/women. Men should stop making decisions on behalf of women when it comes to women's bodies.
Well, but it is not just about women's bodies, but about growing babies' bodies inside women's bodies.

And the thread is not directly about making decisions for pregnant women, but about condoning or condemning, approving or disapproving of the possible choice to abort a child who could live. In my opinion such moral checks and balances have to be part and parcel of a well-functioning human society.

As to the choice, yes, I think it should be the woman's choice. She is the one providing the physical means of survival for the growing embryo (at the very least, most directly). That does not mean that her choice should never be subject to moral judgment by others.

With that said, I can't make a categorical moral judgment in line with any one of the possible answers enumerated here.

Situations can and will be more complex than any number of definite categories. Pregnancies could be fatal for a mother, for example (but that is only one possibility, and quite rare nowadays in technically/medically advanced societies).

In general I would say, abortions should be discouraged, and one can get the impression that they have become far too "normalized" among the general population, partly, some might surmise, because it has become sort-of sacrilegous to infringe upon "women's rights" in some parts of modern western society. (I have no clue, though, how non-western [especially, Eastern, Asian, especially Buddhist influenced] societies look on the "problem" of aborting pregnancies. My guess would be there's less of forced guilty conscience, but [hopefully, as I like to imagine] also more acceptance of life, therefore less willingness to abort what is deemed "not worth living" [or excused away that way]).

With all that said, I don't see abortion (at least in the earliest stages of pregnancy) as on par with such grave a crime as murdering a human who has already been born. My reasoning is that the being yet-to-be-born has not yet taken such a strong hold of and identification with the life to come. So the suffering might be presumed to be less compared to killing a grown-out (or at least, already born) human being. But I'm not quite sure about this reasoning either. Human birth is rare and samsara is gruesome. In any case, it is intentionally depriving another (human) being of life. Even in the case when the woman would die, yet the child live, if she would carry her pregnancy to term. In that case, of course, I'd find it morally justifiable. The woman is the one who gives (or decides not to give) birth. It is, to no inconsiderable extent, also a matter of generosity on her part.
Sovatthika wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:46 pm
it reeks of chivalry
As to the accusation of "chivalry" (or rather the fashionable new aspersion of "white-knighting" [But what's wrong with actual chivalry? - not so much, IMO]) levelled against Stefan, I guess there may be a modicum of truth to it.

However, then there is the flipside of disdain and disregard for women, which seems to be more prevalent among certain types of homosexual males.

"White knight woman pleaser" vs. "grudgeful misogynist". These are the exaggerated stereotype categories my prejudiced perception is inclined to sort you two into, on this matter (only ever so slightly). Of course that's inaccurate and exaggerated for the sake of exaggeration. Just wanted to share the distorted (vipallāsa) view through my eyes. :spy: :jawdrop: :tongue:

:anjali:

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Cittasanto
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:06 pm

This is a hot topic here atm as the law is changing. I am against abortion but understand it is better to have proper medical supervision and support extra allowances for other reasons than an unwanted pregnancy due to the complex emotions and difficult decision being made.

I remember watching a film with Richard Attembrough who played a back street abortion killer. I certainly wouldn't want a return of that sort of thing.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:23 pm

perkele wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:58 pm
Sovatthika wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:46 pm
it reeks of chivalry
As to the accusation of "chivalry" (or rather the fashionable new aspersion of "white-knighting" [But what's wrong with actual chivalry? - not so much, IMO]) levelled against Stefan, I guess there may be a modicum of truth to it.

However, then there is the flipside of disdain and disregard for women, which seems to be more prevalent among certain types of homosexual males.

if that weren't hilarious i'd report it. heck off
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:35 pm

come to think of it, how about making it illegal to kill (intentionally) animals or insects? ...in light of claims of discrimination
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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