Abortion poll

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Your opinion on abortion

Morally against abortion and anti-choice
13
32%
Morally against abortion and pro-choice
18
44%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice for the first 8 weeks (embryo)
3
7%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the start of second trimester (3 mos. pregnant)
3
7%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the start of third trimester (6 mos. pregnant)
3
7%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the delivery (9 mos. pregnant)
1
2%
 
Total votes: 41

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Dhammanando
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:15 pm

binocular wrote:As far as I know, even Catholic hospitals (which will not perform an abortion of a live embryo or fetus) still induce the delivery of the dead embryo or fetus.
I think David might have in mind the case of Savita Halappanavar, though it was actually an Indian Tamil woman and the country was Ireland. (Under Saudi law an abortion would probably have been permitted in identical circumstances).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_ ... lappanavar

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... on-midwife

justindesilva
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by justindesilva » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:50 pm

An embryo in the womb is somebody's karma. No body else has the right to either destroy or meddle with it except nature.

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by BasementBuddhist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:55 pm

justindesilva wrote:An embryo in the womb is somebody's karma. No body else has the right to either destroy or meddle with it except nature.
Aren't human beings a part of nature?

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robertk
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:59 pm

It could have had more options:
ok with mother killing child up to one month after birth.

ok with mother lilling child up to 5 years old.

dharmacorps
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by dharmacorps » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:31 pm

there are 2 issues here, one is how you morally feel about abortion, and the other is what kind of laws you advocate (pro choice or pro life). Pro choice would mean people should be able to choose if they want to abort a fetus, which is in effect killing from a Buddhist perspective. Being pro life would mean advocating that nobody should be permitted to have abortions. But in reality, even if abortion were banned, people would have illegal abortions.

Being pro-choice I suppose could be construed as encouraging or at least permitting people to kill. Being pro-life could mean you are trying to legislate morality. In some ways, the law does try to do that-- e.g. prostitution, drugs, etc.

Personally, I believe abortion is wrong and I would discourage anyone from having one. The fact 800k abortions were performed in the US last year is horrifying. Its being used as a form of birth control and treated very casually by people. I think this is a lack of reverence for life. Can we legislate our way out of this problem? I don't know. I'm not sure what you do about that. This is part of why I didn't vote on this poll. Its far too complex to say pro-choice or pro-life. These are very complex issues which can't be distilled into mutable political stances.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:24 pm

robertk wrote:It could have had more options:
ok with mother killing child up to one month after birth.

ok with mother lilling child up to 5 years old.
Let's not fetter ourselves here. "OK with killing the mother as well".

binocular
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by binocular » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:31 pm

robertk wrote:It could have had more options:
ok with mother killing child up to one month after birth.
ok with mother lilling child up to 5 years old.
The practice of infanticide has taken many forms over time. Child sacrifice to supernatural figures or forces, such as that believed to have been practiced in ancient Carthage, may be only the most notorious example in the ancient world. Anthropologist Laila Williamson notes that "Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule."[6]:61

A frequent method of infanticide in ancient Europe and Asia was simply to abandon the infant, leaving it to die by exposure (i.e. hypothermia, hunger, thirst, or animal attack).[7][8]

In at least one island in Oceania, infanticide was carried out until the 20th century by suffocating the infant,[9] while in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica and in the Inca Empire it was carried out by sacrifice (see below).

/.../
The historical Greeks considered the practice of adult and child sacrifice barbarous,[29] however, the exposure of newborns was widely practiced in ancient Greece, it was even advocated by Aristotle in the case of congenital deformity — "As to the exposure of children, let there be a law that no deformed child shall live.”[30] In Greece the decision to expose a child was typically the father's, although in Sparta the decision was made by a group of elders.[31] Exposure was the preferred method of disposal, as that act in itself was not considered to be murder; moreover, the exposed child technically had a chance of being rescued by the gods or any passersby.[32] /.../ Families did not always keep their new child. After a woman had a baby, she would show it to her husband. If the husband accepted it, it would live, but if he refused it, it would die. Babies would often be rejected if they were illegitimate, unhealthy or deformed, the wrong sex, or too great a burden on the family. These babies would not be directly killed, but put in a clay pot or jar and deserted outside the front door or on the roadway. In ancient Greek religion, this practice took the responsibility away from the parents because the child would die of natural causes, for example hunger, asphyxiation or exposure to the elements.
/.../
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide
/.../
Euthanasia in infants has been proposed by philosophers3 for children with severe abnormalities whose lives can be expected to be not worth living and who are experiencing unbearable suffering.

Also medical professionals have recognised the need for guidelines about cases in which death seems to be in the best interest of the child. In The Netherlands, for instance, the Groningen Protocol (2002) allows to actively terminate the life of ‘infants with a hopeless prognosis who experience what parents and medical experts deem to be unbearable suffering’.4
/.../

After-birth abortion: why should the baby live?
http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/0 ... 00411.full

[emphasis mine]
Last edited by binocular on Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by binocular » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:34 pm

dharmacorps wrote:The fact 800k abortions were performed in the US last year is horrifying. Its being used as a form of birth control and treated very casually by people. I think this is a lack of reverence for life.

Can we legislate our way out of this problem? I don't know.
Can we legislate that human life has value?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

dharmacorps
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by dharmacorps » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:02 pm

binocular wrote:
dharmacorps wrote:The fact 800k abortions were performed in the US last year is horrifying. Its being used as a form of birth control and treated very casually by people. I think this is a lack of reverence for life.

Can we legislate our way out of this problem? I don't know.
Can we legislate that human life has value?
You could make laws that say anything. Doesn't mean people will do it.

SarathW
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by SarathW » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:21 pm

I voted morally wrong but pro-choice.
Abortion is stemming from the hate and anger.
However, there could be some reasons why people make their choices.
It is impossible for us to put ourselves into every person's shoes.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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dylanj
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by dylanj » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:12 pm

The Dhamma is very clear on this matter.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by dylanj » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:01 pm

dharmacorps wrote:there are 2 issues here, one is how you morally feel about abortion, and the other is what kind of laws you advocate (pro choice or pro life). Pro choice would mean people should be able to choose if they want to abort a fetus, which is in effect killing from a Buddhist perspective. Being pro life would mean advocating that nobody should be permitted to have abortions. But in reality, even if abortion were banned, people would have illegal abortions.

Being pro-choice I suppose could be construed as encouraging or at least permitting people to kill. Being pro-life could mean you are trying to legislate morality. In some ways, the law does try to do that-- e.g. prostitution, drugs, etc.

Personally, I believe abortion is wrong and I would discourage anyone from having one. The fact 800k abortions were performed in the US last year is horrifying. Its being used as a form of birth control and treated very casually by people. I think this is a lack of reverence for life. Can we legislate our way out of this problem? I don't know. I'm not sure what you do about that. This is part of why I didn't vote on this poll. Its far too complex to say pro-choice or pro-life. These are very complex issues which can't be distilled into mutable political stances.
:goodpost:

I have the same qualms, I chose anti-choice but wish I could simply choose to be against it yet apolitical.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Reductor
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by Reductor » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:18 pm

Not many options for morally against but prochoice. I would prefer there to be a limit on when you can abort that would be informed by the relevant medical research so that organisms which can feel pain are protected. Hopefully a precise time frame in pregnancy would be identified that would allow a mother the option to abort while not creating a lot of suffering for the fetus. (In fact, I would not be surprised if such a period has been identified).

form
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by form » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:07 am

Killing father or mother is irreversible crime, 100% end up in hell. What about if one kill own son or daughter? Kammically just as heavy?

binocular
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by binocular » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:37 pm

form wrote:Killing father or mother is irreversible crime, 100% end up in hell. What about if one kill own son or daughter? Kammically just as heavy?
I wonder about this too.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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