Abortion poll

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Your opinion on abortion

Morally against abortion and anti-choice
13
33%
Morally against abortion and pro-choice
18
45%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice for the first 8 weeks (embryo)
3
8%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the start of second trimester (3 mos. pregnant)
3
8%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the start of third trimester (6 mos. pregnant)
2
5%
Morally ok with abortion and pro-choice up to the delivery (9 mos. pregnant)
1
3%
 
Total votes: 40

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DNS
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Abortion poll

Post by DNS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:42 pm

After all the abortion topics we have had here, I don't believe anyone has made a poll yet, so here goes . . .

Options based off of clw_uk's thread here:
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30243
(with additional options added)

WontonCarter
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by WontonCarter » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:46 pm

Pro-choice. No statement on abortion itself. I'd rather not be involved.

EDIT: Just...rewrote it.
Last edited by WontonCarter on Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:48 pm

Greetings,

Tough to capture all the permutations and combinations in a poll!

I certainly think it's acceptable (embryo stage) in instances of conception arising from non-consensual sex.

Beyond that, it's varying shades of grey...

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Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Re: Abortion poll

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:03 am

I voted "up until the start of the 3rd trimester" as I believe that is when "consciousness has descended". That's based upon my limited understanding of fetal development (I'm not an expert)
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DNS
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by DNS » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:22 am

retrofuturist wrote: Tough to capture all the permutations and combinations in a poll!
I certainly think it's acceptable (embryo stage) in instances of conception arising from non-consensual sex.
Beyond that, it's varying shades of grey...
Very true! There are all kinds of possibilities, for example one might be anti-choice under normal circumstances but then pro-choice where there is non-consensual sex, as you noted. And then there are more possibilities, including if the mother's life is in danger (carrying to term) or the baby's life is in danger or if the fetus has deformities and I'm sure several more.

I remember hearing of a story last year of a Sri Lankan woman who was a worker in Saudi Arabia who was forced to carry to term her stillborn (dead) baby. Unfortunately the mother died delivering the baby. She had requested an 'abortion' but was denied. Clearly that is anti-choice gone too far since the fetus was already dead.

So for the sake of this poll, let's assume there is consensual sex and no known health problems in the mother or baby.

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Re: Abortion poll

Post by befriend » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:54 am

There are any number of diseases and circumstances that could happen to someone in their life that could alter there entire existence id rather raise an unwanted human than be blind or have leprosy cancer etc... People get pissed when life doesn't go there way, life isn't under your control you don't have control over your own life what gives someone the right try to control someone else's life?
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by befriend » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:19 am

id like to leave this world without having anything of that gravity on my conscience not getting an abortion protects someone from serious remorse as well as those to be born. wishing in gladness and in safety may all beings be at ease wether they are weak or strong medium short or tall those seen and unseen those living near or far away those born and to be born May all beings be at ease.
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:44 am

clw_uk wrote:I voted "up until the start of the 3rd trimester" as I believe that is when "consciousness has descended".
This sounds like a belief in Tibetan rather than Theravada reincarnation; that the re-linking consciousness or bardo floats around on a slight-seeing tour for a while, before the re-linking consciousness makes an evaluation to choose its parents. Doesn't Theravada say the re-linking consciousness from the 2nd to 3rd link in dependent origination happen very quickly?

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Re: Abortion poll

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:04 am

DooDoot wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I voted "up until the start of the 3rd trimester" as I believe that is when "consciousness has descended".
This sounds like a belief in Tibetan rather than Theravada reincarnation; that the re-linking consciousness or bardo floats around on a slight-seeing tour for a while, before the re-linking consciousness makes an evaluation to choose its parents. Doesn't Theravada say the re-linking consciousness from the 2nd to 3rd link in dependent origination happen very quickly?
Why would it be floating around?
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BasementBuddhist
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by BasementBuddhist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:59 am

I think that Abortion is morally suspect, but it isn't my choice to make. It isn't my right to determine what women do with their bodies, ultimately, they are the ones that give birth and are expected to care for the child in most cases.

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Re: Abortion poll

Post by ieee23 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:02 am

A man, Pro choice, do not see a moral problem with abortion.
Last edited by ieee23 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:02 am

BasementBuddhist wrote:I think that Abortion is morally suspect, but it isn't my choice to make. It isn't my right to determine what women do with their bodies, ultimately, they are the ones that give birth and are expected to care for the child in most cases.
If it is the killing of a living human being, aren't we obligated to oppose it (not just as Buddhists but as citizens)?
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BasementBuddhist
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Re: Abortion poll

Post by BasementBuddhist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:01 am

clw_uk wrote:
BasementBuddhist wrote:I think that Abortion is morally suspect, but it isn't my choice to make. It isn't my right to determine what women do with their bodies, ultimately, they are the ones that give birth and are expected to care for the child in most cases.
If it is the killing of a living human being, aren't we obligated to oppose it (not just as Buddhists but as citizens)?

No. Buddhism (I believe) has no idea of moral obligation, this is an idea we get from western religions. We can oppose abortion, we can support it. Neither of these is "wrong". Wrong is a personal opinion, like hot or cold, hard or soft. Buddhism is about truth, not opinion. Now, abortion causes suffering, yes, but suffering is not the enemy, suffering is suffering, it is the first noble truth and a part of life. We make choices in Buddhism, not because they are right and wrong, or because they produce suffering or pleasure, but because they promote either wisdom or ignorance. And even then, if you don't care about the path, choose ignorance. We are obligated by nothing. There are no moral absolutes, and if you believe there are, you do not understand the Dhamma. Kamma is not a law of morals, but of choices and results.

Who am I to tell a woman not to get an abortion? Who am I to say that she has to have a child she doesn't want? If she comes to me and asks me what to do, of course I'll tell her to keep it, but it is her choice and hers alone, and the choice she makes is the choice she makes. She'll have to endure the karmic consequences of that choice, sure, but it is just a choice.

Buddhism is not about greater or lesser, a choice is a choice. Choices have consequences. Dispassion is a requirement for enlightenment.

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Re: Abortion poll

Post by binocular » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:34 am

David N. Snyder wrote:I remember hearing of a story last year of a Sri Lankan woman who was a worker in Saudi Arabia who was forced to carry to term her stillborn (dead) baby. Unfortunately the mother died delivering the baby. She had requested an 'abortion' but was denied. Clearly that is anti-choice gone too far since the fetus was already dead.
Do you remember more details?
As far as I know, even Catholic hospitals (which will not perform an abortion of a live embryo or fetus) still induce the delivery of the dead embryo or fetus.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Abortion poll

Post by davidbrainerd » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:52 am

binocular wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:I remember hearing of a story last year of a Sri Lankan woman who was a worker in Saudi Arabia who was forced to carry to term her stillborn (dead) baby. Unfortunately the mother died delivering the baby. She had requested an 'abortion' but was denied. Clearly that is anti-choice gone too far since the fetus was already dead.
Do you remember more details?
As far as I know, even Catholic hospitals (which will not perform an abortion of a live embryo or fetus) still induce the delivery of the dead embryo or fetus.
Of course. The kind of thing in that quote is just lies abortionists make up to excuse murder. If the baby is already dead its not an abortion.

HOWEVER, a Sri Lankan woman in Saudi Arabia may very well have been forced to carry to term a dead baby, out of pure Arab racism against Sri Lankans. That is believable. But it certainly has nothing to do with views on abortion. After all, Muslims are fine with killing anyone, babies included.

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