Dhamma and Abortion

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by DNS » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:48 pm

Phena wrote: In fact Aloka, there doesn't seem to be many women voices in general on Dhamma Wheel. I wonder why that is? Actually, where are the female Mods and/or Admins? This place has a serious lack of balance. Not just with gender but it seems also to be a prerequisite to have a Moderation or Admin role one has to be a right-winger. Perhaps this is not surprising when one considers the owner of this site is male, capitalist with conservative leanings. In my experience the culture of any organisation always trickles-down to reflect the views and ideals of the owner/boss, etc.
I'm left of center by U.S. standards, but right of center by international standards; so since this is a global forum, I tend to identify myself as right of center.

Americans think I'm too liberal, others think I'm too conservative. :D

You can't always tell gender by usernames, but it does appear the vast majority here are male. We do have a female moderator here it is just that she is very busy with IRL matters and not that active right now.

The current polling in the poll thread on abortion shows a sizable number choosing pro-choice. For the general public, I googled once looking to see if there was some significant bias of men being anti-choice and women being pro-choice and it turns out there were no significant differences in how people responded by gender.

Garrib
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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by Garrib » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:14 pm

form wrote:Isn't the Theravada stance about rebirth is the process is immediate from death to next state, no intermediate stage.
I think that is basically the commentarial position although there are individual Theravadans who have some doubts about this.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:27 pm

Phena -
In fact Aloka, there doesn't seem to be many women voices in general on Dhamma Wheel. I wonder why that is? Actually, where are the female Mods and/or Admins? This place has a serious lack of balance. Not just with gender but it seems also to be a prerequisite to have a Moderation or Admin role one has to be a right-winger. Perhaps this is not surprising when one considers the owner of this site is male, capitalist with conservative leanings. In my experience the culture of any organisation always trickles-down to reflect the views and ideals of the owner/boss, etc.
As if the gender etc of the admins matters. Identity politics at some of its worst there. But to your other point, for many years the admins/mods were left wing (and the page had more censorship. Funny how the two seem to go hand in hand). During that time the owner was the same, which kind of invalidates your claim.

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Mr Man
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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:50 pm

clw_uk wrote:
As if the gender etc of the admins matters. Identity politics at some of its worst there. But to your other point, for many years the admins/mods were left wing (and the page had more censorship. Funny how the two seem to go hand in hand). During that time the owner was the same, which kind of invalidates your claim.


You mean some of the mods were left leaning. There have always been some mods who were right leaning as far as I can remember.

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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:55 pm

Mr Man wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
As if the gender etc of the admins matters. Identity politics at some of its worst there. But to your other point, for many years the admins/mods were left wing (and the page had more censorship. Funny how the two seem to go hand in hand). During that time the owner was the same, which kind of invalidates your claim.


You mean some of the mods were left leaning. There have always been some mods who were right leaning as far as I can remember.
Perhaps, its been so long since I visited so they could have been mods instead of admins.

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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by form » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:16 pm

Garrib wrote:
form wrote:Isn't the Theravada stance about rebirth is the process is immediate from death to next state, no intermediate stage.
I think that is basically the commentarial position although there are individual Theravadans who have some doubts about this.
Can you tell me which Theravada teachers supported there is an intermediate stage?

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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by Garrib » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:09 am

form wrote:
Can you tell me which Theravada teachers supported there is an intermediate stage?
Others here would know better than I would. I haven't read this yet, but I'm about to - I think it might offer some food for thought:

http://santifm.org/santipada/2010/rebir ... -buddhism/

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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by form » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:40 am

Garrib wrote:
form wrote:
Can you tell me which Theravada teachers supported there is an intermediate stage?
Others here would know better than I would. I haven't read this yet, but I'm about to - I think it might offer some food for thought:

http://santifm.org/santipada/2010/rebir ... -buddhism/
Maybe there are.

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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by Phena » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:16 am

form wrote:
Garrib wrote:
form wrote:
Can you tell me which Theravada teachers supported there is an intermediate stage?
Others here would know better than I would. I haven't read this yet, but I'm about to - I think it might offer some food for thought:

http://santifm.org/santipada/2010/rebir ... -buddhism/
Maybe there are.
I recall that Bhikkhu Bodhi believes that there is reasonably strong evidence in the Suttas to suggest an in between state. Unfortunately I don't remember which Sutta(s) he was referring to as it was some time ago, but I am fairly sure he mentioned this point twice in his talks on the Majjhima Nikaya and maybe also his set of talks on The Buddha’s Teaching As It Is.

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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by Garrib » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:31 am

Phena wrote: I recall that Bhikkhu Bodhi believes that there is reasonably strong evidence in the Suttas to suggest an in between state. Unfortunately I don't remember which Sutta(s) he was referring to as it was some time ago, but I am fairly sure he mentioned this point twice in his talks on the Majjhima Nikaya and maybe also his set of talks on The Buddha’s Teaching As It Is.
From https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=8177
cooran wrote:
‘’And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"
"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."
Kutuhalasala Sutta: With Vacchagotta S.N. 44.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by Phena » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:42 am

clw_uk wrote:Phena -
In fact Aloka, there doesn't seem to be many women voices in general on Dhamma Wheel. I wonder why that is? Actually, where are the female Mods and/or Admins? This place has a serious lack of balance. Not just with gender but it seems also to be a prerequisite to have a Moderation or Admin role one has to be a right-winger. Perhaps this is not surprising when one considers the owner of this site is male, capitalist with conservative leanings. In my experience the culture of any organisation always trickles-down to reflect the views and ideals of the owner/boss, etc.
As if the gender etc of the admins matters. Identity politics at some of its worst there. But to your other point, for many years the admins/mods were left wing (and the page had more censorship. Funny how the two seem to go hand in hand). During that time the owner was the same, which kind of invalidates your claim.
Well as I have been reading Dhamma Wheel for perhaps as long as you have clw_uk, I would disagree with your assessment. And fortunately I can rely on my on judgment to make this assessment and look at the developments as they actually are, rather than to rely on what you say.

Ah, the old "identity politics" line. You guys on the Right love to trot it out on a regular basis, so much so in fact that it really has very little sting anymore. But talking about identifying, is it still the "Buddhist Fundamentalist Libertarian" position clw_uk? You know that Libertarian identity is so much more a refined self-view :rofl:

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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by Phena » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:07 am

Garrib wrote:
Phena wrote: I recall that Bhikkhu Bodhi believes that there is reasonably strong evidence in the Suttas to suggest an in between state. Unfortunately I don't remember which Sutta(s) he was referring to as it was some time ago, but I am fairly sure he mentioned this point twice in his talks on the Majjhima Nikaya and maybe also his set of talks on The Buddha’s Teaching As It Is.
From https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=8177
cooran wrote:
‘’And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"
"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."
Kutuhalasala Sutta: With Vacchagotta S.N. 44.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Perhaps, though I think he had a clearer reference indicating the potential for longer time periods, but I would not like to say definitively, as I am uncertain about it.

form
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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by form » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:41 am

Interesting.

In the past, I used to think in between state is mostly a Tibetan belief like in the book of living and dead.

So can you guy elaborate on it, what do you or bodhi meant by it? It is not part of the six realms? Then what is it?

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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by chownah » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:36 pm

binocular wrote: What should be addressed is the question of why engage in sex if one doesn't want to have children,
Money. People have sex for money. You might not be aware of this but it happens alot and in virtually every culture and country. They don't call it the oldest profession for nothing. I think it would be delusional to think that no buddhist ever had sex for money.
chownah

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Re: Dhamma and Abortion

Post by mettafuture » Sat May 26, 2018 2:06 pm

Politically, I'm very progressive. I support gun control, the disassembly of enforced gender roles, and civil rights for all (particularly the marginalized). But when it comes to abortion, I find it difficult to voice my full-throated support for it. I understand that abortion can be a medical necessity. But I also see people arguing that abortion should be an option as a kind of birth control for recreational sex. "It's my body, my choice. I can do what they want." But aren't there technically two bodies involved? It seems cold to start the process of a new life just to casually extinguish it. If abortion can be avoided, it probably should be, but the option shouldn't be removed entirely.

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