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Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:32 pm
by Maarten
Do devas have mind made bodies?

I remember reading someting about this but I'm not sure if it's from the sutta's.

It would explain why we can't see them, and why you would need a developed mind to be able to observe them.

If so, how would one develop this skill?

Much metta,

Maarten

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:46 pm
by 2600htz
Maarten wrote:Do devas have mind made bodies?

I remember reading someting about this but I'm not sure if it's from the sutta's.

It would explain why we can't see them, and why you would need a developed mind to be able to observe them.

If so, how would one develop this skill?

Much metta,

Maarten
Hello:

Mind made bodies are very much the same as regular bodies according to the suttas, in the sense that u project an image of yourself.
As to how are the bodies of devas, it depends on the realm they are from and their merit (u have devas of inmaterial bodies, fine material bodies, or material bodies).

Regards.

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:10 pm
by santa100
Maarten wrote:If so, how would one develop this skill?
Minde-made body is not something exclusive to the devas. A person who's developed deep concentration (4th jhana or above) can also create such body, according to DN 2:
When his mind is thus concentrated, pure and bright, unblemished, free from defects, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body having material form, mind-made, complete in all its parts, not lacking any faculties.

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:40 pm
by form
I have not heard of anyone that has developed mind made body in modern time.

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:46 pm
by Maarten
2600htz wrote:
Hello:

Mind made bodies are very much the same as regular bodies according to the suttas, in the sense that u project an image of yourself.
As to how are the bodies of devas, it depends on the realm they are from and their merit (u have devas of inmaterial bodies, fine material bodies, or material bodies).

Regards.
What about Nagas for example?

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:43 am
by form
Maarten wrote:
2600htz wrote:
Hello:

Mind made bodies are very much the same as regular bodies according to the suttas, in the sense that u project an image of yourself.
As to how are the bodies of devas, it depends on the realm they are from and their merit (u have devas of inmaterial bodies, fine material bodies, or material bodies).

Regards.
What about Nagas for example?
I like your questions. I wonder about those last time. I wondered where are the remains of a naga to show that they existed.

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:03 am
by Garrib
I've heard stories of people projecting a mind made body - can't say for certain that they are true. I had some out of body experience, quite a long time ago now - and many others report such experiences. I've also done lucid dreaming which felt REALLY REALLY real - mostly flying around, jetting up into outer space really fast etc...All of this was before I even really started practicing Buddhism/practicing meditation. This leads me to believe that there are long term meditators who have developed the mind made body - I would be very surprised if this wasn't the case. As cool, or even practical, as such things may be, I believe they are tangential to the real path to Nobility.

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:25 am
by 2600htz
Maarten wrote:
2600htz wrote:
Hello:

Mind made bodies are very much the same as regular bodies according to the suttas, in the sense that u project an image of yourself.
As to how are the bodies of devas, it depends on the realm they are from and their merit (u have devas of inmaterial bodies, fine material bodies, or material bodies).

Regards.
What about Nagas for example?
Hello:

I don´t know, Nagas are more mentioned in hindu literature, but they would probably be a little higher than humans, in one of the low deva lokas.
So, even if u can´t see them, they have a body made of flesh. In the highest realms their bodies are more like a radiance.

Regards.

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:20 am
by Pondera
4. Annihilationism (Ucchedavāda): Views 51–57
84. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are annihilationists and who on seven grounds proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

85. "Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin asserts the following doctrine and view: 'The self, good sir, has material form; it is composed of the four primary elements and originates from father and mother. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

86. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self — divine, having material form, pertaining to the sense sphere, feeding on edible nutriment. That you neither know nor see, but I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way others proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

87. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self — divine, having material form, mind-made, complete in all its limbs and organs, not destitute of any faculties. That you neither know nor see, but I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way others proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

88. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self belonging to the base of infinite space, (reached by) the complete surmounting of perceptions of material form, by the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, by non-attention to perceptions of diversity, (by contemplating) "Space is infinite." That you neither know nor see, but I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way others proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

89. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self belonging to the base of infinite consciousness, (reached by) completely surmounting the base of infinite space (by contemplating): "Consciousness is infinite." That you neither know nor see. But I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death — at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

90. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self belonging to the base of nothingness, (reached by) completely surmounting the base of infinite consciousness (by contemplating): "There is nothing." That you neither know nor see. But I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death — at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

91. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self belonging to the base of neither perception nor non-perception, (reached by) completely surmounting the base of nothingness (by contemplating): "This is the peaceful, this is the sublime." That you neither know nor see. But I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death — at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

92. "It is on these seven grounds, bhikkhus, that those recluses and brahmins who are annihilationists proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being. Whatever recluses or brahmins proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being, all of them do so on these seven grounds or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.


DN 1

In particular, the third view held by the annihilationists corresponds to the mind made body. Reading into it - the space-body, consciousness-body, nothingness-body, etc. are also of interest.

In my experience we can project "karmic" mind made bodies; - bodies of past karma (material) - bodies of future intention (immaterial) - bodies of present day karma (material) and formless karmic bodies (immaterial possibility bodies). In short; the three time periods and the realm of possibility are domains for the mind made body. WHAT ELSE DO YOU THINK YOU ARE!!! Traveling through time, as it were, we are just karmic bodies leaving trails in the past, stamps on the present and whispers in the future - all while swirling in the possibilities of samsara!!!

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:57 am
by Maarten
2600htz wrote: Hello:

I don´t know, Nagas are more mentioned in hindu literature, but they would probably be a little higher than humans, in one of the low deva lokas.
So, even if u can´t see them, they have a body made of flesh. In the highest realms their bodies are more like a radiance.

Regards.
Thanks, I think that answers my question.
What I really meant to ask was if devas or some devas don't have bodies. So they only have a mind.
So it would be possible for Naga's to be these serpents made of radiant light, depending on what realm they are from?

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:32 pm
by Dhammanando
Maarten wrote:What I really meant to ask was if devas or some devas don't have bodies. So they only have a mind.
All devas have bodies except those in the Arūpa world.

http://aimwell.org/DPPN/devaa.html

http://aimwell.org/DPPN/brahmaloka.html
Maarten wrote:So it would be possible for Naga's to be these serpents made of radiant light, depending on what realm they are from?
No. In the Pali texts nāgas and nāgīs are elite, upper-class animals. They're made of snaky flesh, eat frogs and have a poisonous breath. When not fighting with (or fleeing from) their enemies, the garuḍas, they like to amuse themselves with circle-dancing around anthills.

:group:

http://aimwell.org/DPPN/nagaa.html#5

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:39 pm
by form
There is no association between mind made body and a Deva. To be a deva, one need not even have first jhana. Deva are at the top of the desire realm. Whereas, mind made body is something only possible with the fourth jhana, and that is at the upper end of the form realm. I have never come across any materials that talk about those higher beings in the highest tier of the form realm playing with the mind made body ability.

In Chinese Taoist alchemy, mind made body is called 元婴, yuan yin (primordial baby). It is a necessary step to become a 仙, xian (seer).

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:47 am
by Crazy cloud
Pondera wrote: Traveling through time, as it were, we are just karmic bodies leaving trails in the past, stamps on the present and whispers in the future - all while swirling in the possibilities of samsara!!!
Nice :smile:

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:17 pm
by Maarten
Dhammanando wrote: All devas have bodies except those in the Arūpa world.
Thank you for your answer Bhante.

Would these Arūpa Devas be capable of moving around, doing things, and communicating?
Or would they just be in a kind of static state, enjoying the bliss of Jhana?

I've read about Cloud Devas, where would they fit in? Would the cloud be their body or would they be from the Arūpa world?

With Metta,
Maarten

Re: Do devas have mind made bodies?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:22 pm
by Dhammanando
Maarten wrote:Would these Arūpa Devas be capable of moving around, doing things, and communicating?
Or would they just be in a kind of static state, enjoying the bliss of Jhana?
I don't think the texts ever state whether they are mobile or stationary, but I suspect the latter. Being disembodied and lacking sense-organs they experience no cognitions of forms, sounds, odours, flavours, or bodily contacts, and so there wouldn't be any experiential difference between being in one place rather than another. Why then would there be any impetus to move from here to there?

As for their state of mind, according to the Abhidhamma they spend their time enjoying 20 of the 25 beautiful mental factors, the missing ones being compassion, sympathetic joy, and the three abstinences. They may be in jhāna much of the time, but not always, for the texts say that they experience happiness and an arising of faith when they learn (presumably by telepathy) that a Buddha has appeared in the world.
Maarten wrote:I've read about Cloud Devas, where would they fit in? Would the cloud be their body or would they be from the Arūpa world?
No, the five groups of Valāhakāyika devas are way down in the sense-sphere heavens, closer to us than they are to the Arūpa devas.