Stream enterers and sexual desire

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Stephen18
Posts: 1547
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:53 pm
Contact:

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Stephen18 »

Tom wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:00 am Does attaining stream entry decrease sexual desire?
Not necessarily.
dunner079
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:45 pm

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by dunner079 »

chownah wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:15 am
dunner079 wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:59 pm Having attained Sotapanna when I was 17 I can only say desire became more aggressive and intense for many years.

Sexual desire was one of the main senses that was significantly heightened along with anger and other obsessions. I felt a little cheated by the whole experience expecting to have been released from my mind's suffering. Instead, my ego enforced itself and made a very large scale-up of its defense and sexual compulsion was a big part of this.

As the years went on and having been a very traumatic experience for me experiencing no self and stream entry I have come to terms with it of sorts becoming more and more embedded and subtle.

Now my sexual desire is nowhere near what it was along with hatred, fear, and attachment but of course, getting older is a big part of this. I still have all these desires and they do arise like any normal human mind but the grip on which they have is weak and short.
Seems like you are describing pretty much the normal development of sexuality for the typical male human whether they attain anything or not.

Now if you had been 70 years old and this happened it would be more meaningful.....if you could teach other 70 year olds how to do this you could get really really rich and put the viagra people out of business....or at least make a big dent in their profits.
chownah

Ye, of course, it is a typical development, years get on and you get less energised for sex. But having a Satori for me personally did nothing to inhibit sexual desire at all. It has some good points to it the years go by but you're still in the trenches duking it out with yourself after experiencing it.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 13425
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by DNS »

Sotapanna:
"With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is one who has seven more times at most. Having transmigrated and wandered on among devas and human beings, he will put an end to stress.
Sakadagami (once-returner):
"[Or], with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, he is a once-returner who — on returning only once more to this world — will put an end to stress.
Anguttara Nikaya 3.86
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Once-returner, like the stream-entrant has eradicated the first 3 hindrances. Once returner has reduced ill-will and craving for sense desires.

Sotapanna has not necessarily reduced sense desires.

Non-returner has eradicated first 5 hindrances and has no more craving for sense desires. And arahant of course has eradicated all 10 hindrances.

Sotapannas can still have sense desires and it may not even be reduced craving yet.

Some have an image of a sotapanna being an almost impossible feat and almost on a par with Arahant, which is not what the Suttas say and is at odds with it.
auto
Posts: 1874
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/an4.5/en/sujato wrote:“These four people are found in the world. “Cattārome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṃvijjamānā lokasmiṃ. What four? Katame cattāro?

A person who goes with the stream; a person who goes against the stream; a steadfast person; and a brahmin who has crossed over and stands on the far shore. Anusotagāmī puggalo, paṭisotagāmī puggalo, ṭhitatto puggalo, tiṇṇo pāraṅgato thale tiṭṭhati brāhmaṇo.

And who is the person who goes with the stream? Katamo ca, bhikkhave, anusotagāmī puggalo?
It’s a person who takes part in sensual pleasures and does bad deeds. Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo kāme ca paṭisevati, pāpañca kammaṃ karoti. This is called a person who goes with the stream. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, anusotagāmī puggalo.
sotapanna does bad deeds and takes part in sensual pleasures. Some may not agree that it describes sotapanna, but if you look other 3, then why wouldn't it be a description of a sotapanna?
SteRo
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by SteRo »

SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:23 am
Tom wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:00 am Does attaining stream entry decrease sexual desire?
No. Attenuation occurs with Once-Returner, not before. However the sotapanna does not conceptually self-identify with sexual desire anymore, his self does not conceptually depend on the satisfaction of sexual desire anymore. Thus a sotapanna will neither seek sexual pleasure nor sexual relief anymore and will not entertain thoughts about sexual pleasures, fantasies and the like.
One important thing I forgot is that with the possible arising of a momentary flash of sexual desire in a sotapanna caused by accidentially meeting a corresponding object there does not arise concomitant wrong appreciative view as in case of worldlings. This is very important since it is this concomitant wrong view which usually amplifies the asava to result in kilesa in worldlings.

Therefore due to insight in annica, dukkha and anatta and abandoned belief in self-identity and personality the sotapanna is not overwhelmed by a flash of desire caused by anusaya and kamasava will not grow into kilesa which is why sotapanna is not overwhelmed and does not follow that flash of desire.

Sotapanna is sotapanna, regardless of whether the corresponding worldling has been a lay or a monk. And sotapanna has attained the path without effluents which is why sexual activity is renounced naturally and effortlessly due to insight.
Difference between lay and monk is only before attaining sotapanna because lay does not have to renounce sexual activity but monk has to effortfully renounce sexual activity due to vinaya.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
SteRo
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by SteRo »

chownah wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:45 pm ...
SteRo wrote: It's a summary conclusion regarding sexual desire taking into account what has been explicitly said in many suttas about the marks of abandonment of the fetters in terms of sotapanna, once-returner, non-returner and arahant. In order to make that conclusion one has to take into account what is said about the fetter sensual desire and the chain of habits associated with sensual desire. And one necessarily has to take into account what is said in sutta about once-returner, non-retuerner and arahant in the context of all fetters.
So it's the result of in depth study taking into account also some commentaries and as such this summary conclusion cannot be found in a sutta explicitly.
Anyone here is free to state a different conclusion as to sotapanna and sexual desire and associated habits and I may show the inconsistencies of such a different conclusion if there are any.
Since the things you assert are not stated in the suttas (as you admit) then it seems that your assertions are construals based on your interpretations of various texts and as I think that you have declared as being non-theravadan it seems plausible that there might be some influence from non-theravadan sources. Interpreting and construing is fine....we all do it....when I do it I try to make it understood what are my interpretations and construals although sometimes I am too lax in doing this. I try to avoid the tone which sounds like I am defining what is the buddha dhamma by just declaring my construals as the way things are which is how your post sounds to me.....so its good that we now know that what you have posted is just your construal based on your interpetations (if that is what it is) and not a declaration of what is found in the suttas (if that is what it is not). (Note: notice how I have included "if that is what it is" and "if that is what it is not". I do this to indicate that I am not trying to announce what you post as being definitively this or that and that I am allowing the space that my estimations may be wrong.)
chownah
Hi chownah, reading your reply made me smile because of your specific way to express yourself ... a recognition and remembrance of the conversations we had about 'views' and the like months ago. I don't have that kind of attitude towards language.
I just want to have consistency of linguistic expressions when it comes to particular topics which is what motivated me to investigate into the view of the suttas about attainments and progress on the path in the first place. But what can be found in the suttas is the same heuristic imprecision about that topic (attainments and progress on the path) that is displayed by Theravada followers. And really, until today I have not met even a single Theravada follower that does not get entangled in contradictions when speaking about the different attainments in the course of the path and how the different stages are differentiated.
Therefore without comparing different suttas, extracting implications, and comparing suttas and commentaries and straightening out inconsistency "knots" it is impossible to get a clear-cut concept of the different realizations/attainments and their difference.
Commentaries I've used are some of user DooDoot, i.e. inspiring conversations I've had with him months ago, I have used the Vimuttimagga and I have used an appendix table in the Manual of Insight by Mahāsi Sayadaw.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 9219
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sensual desire (kāmacchando) relies upon a sign (nimitta). For example, a beautiful man is a sign (nimitta). Signs (nimitta) are born from lust (raga), hate (dosa) and delusion (moha).

Lust (raga), hate (dosa) and delusion (moha) have not ceased within the sotapanna. Not having ceased the sotapanna, being touched by a pleasant feeling, perceives. Perceiving the sotapanna intends. Intending there is contact. There being contact there is attention. The sotapanna then fabricates a “man” who is “out there” and who has “beauty”, experienced by “me”. A man who is beautiful has been fabricated by the sotapanna out of lust (raga) and nama-rupa. A sign (nimitta) has been fabricated out of raga. As the sotapanna still fabricates a sign (nimitta), such as a beautiful man, there is still sensual desire (kāmacchando) in the form of sexual desire.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 6984
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Aloka »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:13 pm Sensual desire (kāmacchando) relies upon a sign (nimitta). For example, a beautiful man is a sign (nimitta). Signs (nimitta) are born from lust (raga), hate (dosa) and delusion (moha).

Lust (raga), hate (dosa) and delusion (moha) have not ceased within the sotapanna. Not having ceased the sotapanna, being touched by a pleasant feeling, perceives. Perceiving the sotapanna intends. Intending there is contact. There being contact there is attention. The sotapanna then fabricates a “man” who is “out there” and who has “beauty”, experienced by “me”. A man who is beautiful has been fabricated by the sotapanna out of lust (raga) and nama-rupa. A sign (nimitta) has been fabricated out of raga. As the sotapanna still fabricates a sign (nimitta), such as a beautiful man, there is still sensual desire (kāmacchando) in the form of sexual desire.
I'm puzzled, because this doesn't seem anything like the description of nimitta from "Stage Six:Experiencing the Beautiful Nimitta" in Ajahn Brahm's book "Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond" (see in the excerpt from the book at the link) which, after "one lets go of the body, thought and the five senses" appears to be like a light. It doesn't say anything about it having been born from the "lust, hate and delusion" which you mentioned in your post.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books11/Ajah ... ers1-5.pdf


.
Last edited by Aloka on Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 9219
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Ceisiwr »

Aloka wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:22 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:13 pm Sensual desire (kāmacchando) relies upon a sign (nimitta). For example, a beautiful man is a sign (nimitta). Signs (nimitta) are born from lust (raga), hate (dosa) and delusion (moha).

Lust (raga), hate (dosa) and delusion (moha) have not ceased within the sotapanna. Not having ceased the sotapanna, being touched by a pleasant feeling, perceives. Perceiving the sotapanna intends. Intending there is contact. There being contact there is attention. The sotapanna then fabricates a “man” who is “out there” and who has “beauty”, experienced by “me”. A man who is beautiful has been fabricated by the sotapanna out of lust (raga) and nama-rupa. A sign (nimitta) has been fabricated out of raga. As the sotapanna still fabricates a sign (nimitta), such as a beautiful man, there is still sensual desire (kāmacchando) in the form of sexual desire.
I'm puzzled, because this doesn't seem anything like the description of nimitta from "Stage Six:Experiencing the Beautiful Nimitta" in Ajahn Brahm's book "Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond" (see in excerpt from the book at the link).

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books11/Ajah ... ers1-5.pdf


.

I’m not referring to meditation in this context:

“Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs.”
“Rāgo kho, āvuso, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 9219
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Ceisiwr »

“Yet somehow my consciousness still follows after signs.’
“atha ca pana me nimittānusāri viññāṇaṃ hotī’ti.”
https://suttacentral.net/an6.13/en/sujato


“How many conditions are necessary to attain the signless release of the heart?”
“Kati panāvuso, paccayā animittāya cetovimuttiyā samāpattiyā”ti?

“Two conditions are necessary to attain the signless release of the heart:
“Dve kho, āvuso, paccayā animittāya cetovimuttiyā samāpattiyā—

not focusing on any signs, and focusing on the signless.
sabbanimittānañca amanasikāro, animittāya ca dhātuyā manasikāro.

These two conditions are necessary to attain the signless release of the heart.”

Ime kho, āvuso, dve paccayā animittāya cetovimuttiyā samāpattiyā”ti.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato

they directly know all things. Directly knowing all things, they completely understand all things. Completely understanding all things, they see all signs as other. They see the eye, sights,

So sabbaṃ dhammaṃ abhijānāti, sabbaṃ dhammaṃ abhiññāya sabbaṃ dhammaṃ parijānāti, sabbaṃ dhammaṃ pariññāya sabbanimittāni aññato passati, cakkhuṃ aññato passati, rūpe …
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 6984
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Aloka »

Yes, I already understood it meant "sign" - but its been a long day and I'm very tired......


:hello:............. :zzz:

.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 9219
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Ceisiwr »

Aloka wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:01 am Yes, I already understood it meant "sign" - but its been a long day and I'm very tired......


:hello:............. :zzz:

.


“Signs” are percepts. It refers to sense-perception. To the puthujjana signs refer to “things”, such as a rock, a tree or a beautiful man. He takes these “things” to be real and existing “out there”. To the puthujjana we come to know “things” via signs. To the Arahant all we perceive are signs, which refer to “things” but these “things” refer only to lust, hate and delusion and not to “things” out there. Why? Because lust, hate and delusion is what creates the “signs”. It’s what creates the beautiful man in the unawakened mind.


“Lust is a maker of signs. Aversion is a maker of signs. Delusion is a maker of signs.” MN 43

"Rooted in desire, friends, are all phenomena; originating in attention, are all phenomena”
— A. v. 106).

This is why the sotapanna still experiences some form of sexual desire.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
Srilankaputra
Posts: 1080
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by Srilankaputra »

As I understand it, in the puthujjana hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving the potentiality for future existence extends to a infinite future.

In the Sotapanna if they do not practice further the potentiality for future existence only extends to a maximum of seven lives(It may be lower). And the potentiality for birth in lower realms has been completely eradicated.

Since craving is the 'Samudaya Sacca' or Truth of origination it makes sense that compared to a puthujjana a Sotapanna has attenuated craving aspects of their lives, but not completely eradicated.

Sīlavaṃtaṃ guṇavaṃtaṃ
Puññakkhettaṃ anuttaraṃ
Dullabhena mayā laddhaṃ
Passituṃ vandituṃ varaṃ
Sāriputtādi therānaṃ
āgataṃ paṭipāṭiyā
saddhā sīlaṃ dayāvāsaṃ
Buddha puttaṃ namāmahaṃ
SteRo
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by SteRo »

Aloka wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:22 pm I'm puzzled, because this doesn't seem anything like the description of nimitta from "Stage Six:Experiencing the Beautiful Nimitta" in Ajahn Brahm's book "Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond" (see in the excerpt from the book at the link) which, after "one lets go of the body, thought and the five senses" appears to be like a light. It doesn't say anything about it having been born from the "lust, hate and delusion" which you mentioned in your post.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books11/Ajah ... ers1-5.pdf
Peter Harvey in "Signless" Meditations in Pali Buddhism gives a good overview on the variety of meanings of "nimitta":
Peter Harvey wrote:V. The Meaning of Nimitta
Having mapped out the range of states known as "animitta,"
we can now investigate the nature and range of "nimittas" before
going on to examine the method of practice that leads beyond
them, and the nature of the animitta states to which such practices
lead.
While nimitta has been translated as "sign" so far, we can
see its range of meaning, in general usage, as being:
i) A deliberately made sign, or "hint," as when the Buddha
made a broad nimitta about the possibility of his living on for
the rest of the aeon.27
ii) A natural sign or indication, not deliberately made as a sign.
At S. V. 150, for example, in not noting what his master says
he likes, and reaches out for, etc., an inexperienced cook is
said not to take proper note of his master's nimitta. One who
reads the mind of another, without going off what anyone
says, and without using the power of meditation for direct
thought-reading, is said to do so by means of a nimitta, i.e., a
behavioural sign.28 Earthquakes are said to be the nimittas,
or signs, of the four main events in a buddha's life,29 while
ageing, sickness, death, and an ascetic are the four nimittas,
or "indications" of the nature of life, leading to a bodhisatta's
SO
renunciation,
iii) A specific type of natural sign—a sign of what is to come, a
portent. Thus, "diviners of nimittas" examined the 32 marks
on the body of the newborn bodhisatta*1 taking three of
them as the nimitta, or "sign" of longevity.32 Similarly, we
read that "that is a prior sign (pubbe nimittam) of the manifestation
of Brahma, when the light arises, and the glory
shines."33
iv) A marker, as when hillsides and rocks, etc. are taken as nimittas
showing the boundaries of a monastic residence.34
v) A (male or female) sexual organ (Vin.III.28, and 21) or sexual
characteristic (Dhs.§633,644).
vi) Characteristic, as in bdlanimittdni, "the characteristics of a
fool" (M.III. 163), and as implied in "But you, householder,
have all the characteristic marks and signs (dkdrd te lingd te
nimitta) of a householder,"3""1 and in the phrase "face-ra'raitta"
which is what is said to be seen to be seen and pondered
in a mirror (M.I. 100).
vii) General appearance, or gestalt, as in the common passage,
"Having seen a visible shape with the eye, he does not seize
on the general appearance (nimittaggdhi), he does not seize
on the detail (anubyanjanaggdhi) . . . ."36
viii) Ground, reason or cause, as when the Buddha says that he
does not behold the nimitta on which anyone could reprove
him for having dsavas not yet destroyed.37 Similarly, at
M.III. 157, a monk says that he does not know nimitta, the
reason, why, in his attempts to see gods, their light and visible
form come to disappear.38
ix) Aim, as when an archer "takes a straight aim {nimittam ujum
Aflroft')w(Miln.418).
x) The object of concentration in samatha meditation: this is
well attested in the commentarial literature, e.g., at
Vism. 125—6: in concentrating on an external device, such as
a clay disc, the device itself is the "preliminary" nimitta', by
concentrating on it, the meditator comes to see a mental
image of it, even with closed eyes—this is the "learning"
nimitta: by his concentrating on this, it appears in a purified,
abstracted form, the "counterpart" nimitta. In the latter two
cases, the nimitta can be seen as a "reflex image," which is
both a "sign" that the meditation is proceeding well and the
"target" of concentration (cf. sense ix, above). Such
samddhi-nimittas are also alluded to in the suttas. The "pre
liminary" sign is alluded to at Ps.II.38, which says, "Here,
someone gives attention to the nimitta of blue-black, internally
in himself," the commentary explaining this to mean a
person's hair. A reflex-image nimitta is referred to, e.g., at
A.IV.418, on a monk who is unskilled at entering on and
dwelling in the firstjhdna:" he does not pursue, nor develop,
nor cultivate that nimitta."39
We see then that, in general usage, nimitta means a sign or
indication, which may be a hint, or an indication of contemporary
or future thoughts, desires, events or features of life, or a
(boundary) marker, sexual or other characteristic, general appearance,
ground or reason, aim, or a meditation object that is
either physical or a mental reflex image. It is a delimited object
of attention, that may, or should be taken as indicating something
beyond itself or the general features of that to which it
belongs.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
chownah
Posts: 8962
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Stream enterers and sexual desire

Post by chownah »

dunner079 wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:51 pm
chownah wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:15 am
dunner079 wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:59 pm Having attained Sotapanna when I was 17 I can only say desire became more aggressive and intense for many years.

Sexual desire was one of the main senses that was significantly heightened along with anger and other obsessions. I felt a little cheated by the whole experience expecting to have been released from my mind's suffering. Instead, my ego enforced itself and made a very large scale-up of its defense and sexual compulsion was a big part of this.

As the years went on and having been a very traumatic experience for me experiencing no self and stream entry I have come to terms with it of sorts becoming more and more embedded and subtle.

Now my sexual desire is nowhere near what it was along with hatred, fear, and attachment but of course, getting older is a big part of this. I still have all these desires and they do arise like any normal human mind but the grip on which they have is weak and short.
Seems like you are describing pretty much the normal development of sexuality for the typical male human whether they attain anything or not.

Now if you had been 70 years old and this happened it would be more meaningful.....if you could teach other 70 year olds how to do this you could get really really rich and put the viagra people out of business....or at least make a big dent in their profits.
chownah

Ye, of course, it is a typical development, years get on and you get less energised for sex. But having a Satori for me personally did nothing to inhibit sexual desire at all. It has some good points to it the years go by but you're still in the trenches duking it out with yourself after experiencing it.
Now I don't know what you are trying to say. You say:
Ye, of course, it is a typical development
But just before you said:
Having attained Sotapanna when I was 17 I can only say desire became more aggressive and intense for many years.

Sexual desire was one of the main senses that was significantly heightened along with anger and other obsessions. I felt a little cheated by the whole experience................
It seems that you said that attaining sotapanna significantlly heightened sexual desire.....but now you are saying that it was a typical development. So are you saying that it is a typical development or are you saying that it came about because of having attained sotapanna?
chownah
Post Reply