What is the difference between Vitakka/ Vicara and Papanca?

[SarathW]

What is the difference between Vitakka/ Vicara and Papanca?

This question is based on the following Sutta.

The ball of honey.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... than.html1

[santa100]

Notice there's no mentioning of Vicara in MN 18. Hence it's important to notice the differences in context between the Vitakka(applied examination)/Vicara(sustained examination), which are the 2 jhana factors among the 5 factors of the first jhana (the other 3 are: piti(joy), sukha(happiness), and ekaggata(one-pointedness)), versus just the Vitakka(thinking about), which is the 5th of the 6-stage perceptual process in MN 18 (1. sense consciousness 2. sensory impingement 3. feeling 4. perception 5. examination/thinking about(Vitakka) 6. mental proliferation(Papanca)).

[SarathW]

Good point Santa.
So what is the difference between Vicara and Papanca?

[santa100]

Explanation of what papanca means is already there in Ven. Thanissaro's Intro. to MN 18 link that you provided. Vitakka/Vicara meanings were also addressed in your previous thread here. The most obvious difference is that papanca always carry a negative connotation while Vitakka/Vicara can be either positive (in the context of being part of the 1st jhana factors) or not, in regular normal perception processes. Other differences were also provided by folks on buddhism.stackexchange and suttacentral forums where you posted the same question.

[paul]

Vitakka and vicara can be unwholesome or wholesome. In jhana they are invariably wholesome.---"The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation", Henepola Gunaratana

[SarathW]

Thanks all.
Based on your answers I came to the following conclusion.
Papanca is the unwholsome Vicara just before the first Jhana.

Further reading.

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... 4749_21035


https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/wh ... ca/5706/10

[justindesilva]

Good point Santa.
So what is the difference between Vicara and Papanca?

My posting is based on a sermon by one Sorata himi ( now not living) .
Vitakka is the application of a thought for meditation.
Vicara is the sustensnce of this thought.
Sustaining the applied thought depends on the wholesome or unwholesone nature ( kusal or akusal cetasika) of the mind.
Papancha is like a mosquito disturbing meditation where the mosquito is Loba & dosa (greed and aversion).
I accept this explanation as It is a very practical example.

[SarathW]

Why Papanca is not included in Abhidhamma within 52 mental sates?

[sentinel]

Why Papanca is not included in Abhidhamma within 52 mental sates?

What about intention ? Where does intention fit in ? Isn't intention or sankhara is the fifth in the process ?

[SarathW]

Why Papanca is not included in Abhidhamma within 52 mental sates?

What about intention ? Where does intention fit in ? Isn't intention or sankhara is the fifth in the process ?

Thanks James.
Please create another new topic as this seems to be an off topic.
This topic is about the Vitakka and Papanca.