My action about the 12 dependent origination

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Dinsdale
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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by Dinsdale » Fri May 12, 2017 8:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Spiny,
Spiny Norman wrote:There isn't a consensus on what the nidanas represent, just a lot of interpretations.
True, but nowhere anywhere in any scripture is there to be found this notion of it being a "cycle". It's as if the subsequent "wheel of life" diagram has retrospectively been absorbed into mainstream understanding.
Yes, I tend to agree. Though some of the nidanas are cyclical in nature.
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2600htz
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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by 2600htz » Fri May 12, 2017 7:22 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
2600htz wrote:What do u mean by dependent origination being a cycle or not being a cycle?
I mean it's not a cycle, and the suttas never taught it as a cycle.

For more information, see: Is There Scriptural Justification for The Wheel

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hello:

I get the danger of dependent origination being taught as a model of transmigration, in the sense that some people might take it as a philosophy,
or something that can only be seen in the course of 3 lifetimes, in a basic way.

And i wouldn´t go as far as saying that the last link (aging,death,pain,despair,etc) its the cause of the first (ignorance), but definitely there is a cycle happening in between, that can be seen microscopically (in the course of a tiny unit of time), or macroscopically (in the course of many lifetimes).

Regards.

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cjmacie
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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by cjmacie » Fri May 12, 2017 10:07 pm

2600htz wrote:...And i wouldn´t go as far as saying that the last link (aging,death,pain,despair,etc) its the cause of the first (ignorance), but definitely there is a cycle happening in between, that can be seen microscopically (in the course of a tiny unit of time), or macroscopically (in the course of many lifetimes)...
Looked at in detail, the scheme contains many cycles and feedback loops and at various levels -- c.f. Thanissaro Bhikku's
"The Shape of Suffering". (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... fering.pdf)
Last edited by retrofuturist on Fri May 12, 2017 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Citation corrected

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retrofuturist
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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by retrofuturist » Fri May 12, 2017 10:51 pm

Greetings,

There are several variants of the standard paticcasamuppada formula throughout the Pali Canon.

Whilst being different, none illustrate anything cyclical other than those that speak of the relationship between nama-rupa (name-and-form) and vinnana (consciousness). (e.g. DN 15). This "vortex" is a common theme in Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons and you can read more about it there if you're interested.

As highlighted above, however, there is nothing that connects the bottom to the top. Be wary of allowing vox-pop to be your Dhamma...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by 2600htz » Sat May 13, 2017 2:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

There are several variants of the standard paticcasamuppada formula throughout the Pali Canon.

Whilst being different, none illustrate anything cyclical other than those that speak of the relationship between nama-rupa (name-and-form) and vinnana (consciousness). (e.g. DN 15). This "vortex" is a common theme in Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons and you can read more about it there if you're interested.

As highlighted above, however, there is nothing that connects the bottom to the top. Be wary of allowing vox-pop to be your Dhamma...

Metta,
Paul. :)


Hello:

Still don´t understand your point :anjali: .
Definition of Cycle: "Serie of ocurrences that repeats or is repeated".

-Aging and death is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-Birth is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-etc.

What im missing?.

Regards.

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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by chownah » Sat May 13, 2017 2:24 am

I won't speak for retrofuturist but what I see that he is saying is that while people might see cycles in DO there is no actual talk about cycles in the sutta presentations of DO nor is there any suggestion that we should be thinking in terms of cycles except for what retrofuturist has mentioned.....if you see cycles there it is not because the suttas have prompted it except for what retrofuturist mentioned.
chownah

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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by retrofuturist » Sat May 13, 2017 2:26 am

Greetings 2600htz,
2600htz wrote:-Aging and death is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-Birth is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-etc.

What im missing?.
You're assuming there is a being, to whom these things could happen, and as such you're falsely projecting a self/being through time...

But that aside, a more appropriate metaphor (if you must have one) would be a waterfall... it repeatedly functions due to flows, but it's not circular. The water from the bottom does not condition the water above. Only when the downstream flow stops, does the waterfall cease to function. In paticcasamuppada, the flows of sankharas arise due to ignorance.

(And what chownah has said above is correct...)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by mikenz66 » Sat May 13, 2017 3:05 am

2600: As you observe most interpretations of DO have something to say about the continuity of process from life to life. Ven Nanananda's interpretation, for example, differs from the three-life commentary version but is still relevant to the continuaton from life to life. See the Nibbana Sermons.

However, it is clear that no interpretation is quite as simple as a circle.

Mike

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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by 2600htz » Sat May 13, 2017 3:56 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings 2600htz,
2600htz wrote:-Aging and death is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-Birth is a ocurrence that repeats or is repeated
-etc.

What im missing?.
You're assuming there is a being, to whom these things could happen, and as such you're falsely projecting a self/being through time...

But that aside, a more appropriate metaphor (if you must have one) would be a waterfall... it repeatedly functions due to flows, but it's not circular. The water from the bottom does not condition the water above. Only when the downstream flow stops, does the waterfall cease to function. In paticcasamuppada, the flows of sankharas arise due to ignorance.

(And what chownah has said above is correct...)

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hello:

But why i am assuming there is a being?, when have i used the word "circular" ?.
I have stated a definition of "cycle" in accordance with your waterfall metaphor, never otherwise.

Regards.

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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by retrofuturist » Sat May 13, 2017 4:11 am

Greetings 2600htz,
2600htz wrote:But why i am assuming there is a being?, when have i used the word "circular" ?.
Because you speak of a re-peating. The re in repeating signifies "again". If these are happening "again", what is the point of reference for which these "repeat" events could be said to be occurring "again"? Such words require a reference point to be meaningful, and that reference point is a self or a being (i.e. they are happening to "me" or to "you").
2600htz wrote:I have stated a definition of "cycle" in accordance with your waterfall metaphor, never otherwise.
That's fine, I'm just trying to work out what your outstanding objection is...?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by 2600htz » Sat May 13, 2017 4:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings 2600htz,
2600htz wrote:But why i am assuming there is a being?, when have i used the word "circular" ?.
Because you speak of a re-peating. The re in repeating signifies "again". If these are happening "again", what is the point of reference for which makes these "repeat" events could be said to be occurring "again"? Such words require a reference point to be meaningful, and that reference point is a self or a being (i.e. they are happening to "me" or to "you").
2600htz wrote:I have stated a definition of "cycle" in accordance with your waterfall metaphor, never otherwise.
That's fine, I'm just trying to work out what your outstanding objection is...?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hello:

Lets stay on the waterfall, its easier haha.

Im just stating that the waterfall is repeating a process of water flowing. And that doesn´t make a waterfall possesed of a self :).
And im calling that repeating process of water flowing a "cycle".

Are we talking about the same thing ? -_-, my english is not so good haha.

Regards.

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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by retrofuturist » Sat May 13, 2017 4:33 am

Greetings,
2600htz wrote:Are we talking about the same thing ? -_-, my english is not so good haha.
I'm not sure, but I think we've explained ourselves as much as is necessary to communicate our points, so I'm happy to leave it there.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by The Thinker » Sat May 13, 2017 9:54 am

Everything changes , nothing is permanent! That includes the notion of a cycle.
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by cjmacie » Wed May 17, 2017 12:06 pm

retrofuturist wrote:... waterfall... it repeatedly functions due to flows, but it's not circular. The water from the bottom does not condition the water above. Only when the downstream flow stops, does the waterfall cease to function.
You mean stopped “upstream” – so no water is coming down?. Or do you mean if a dam downstream stops the water, eventually the lake formed would engulf the waterfall? :shrug:

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Re: My action about the 12 dependent origination

Post by retrofuturist » Wed May 17, 2017 10:41 pm

Greetings CJMacie,
cjmacie wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:... waterfall... it repeatedly functions due to flows, but it's not circular. The water from the bottom does not condition the water above. Only when the downstream flow stops, does the waterfall cease to function.
You mean stopped “upstream” – so no water is coming down?.
I mean no water reaches the waterfall's edge.

Just as rivers dry up in the absence of rain, sankharas dry up in the absence of avijja.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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