Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

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khlawng
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by khlawng » Mon May 08, 2017 6:47 am

unfortnuately, you missed out the worst kind.
verbatim regurgitators.
they are by far more harmful than distortors.

If all u have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

binocular
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by binocular » Mon May 08, 2017 10:40 am

khlawng wrote:so to say someone who is a sotatpanna can maintain this state permanently effortlessly is well,
for me an incorrect concept.
And yet:
"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.

"For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.

"For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May rapture arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person.

"For a rapturous person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my body be serene.' It is in the nature of things that a rapturous person grows serene in body.

"For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure.

"For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my mind grow concentrated.' It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated.

"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.

"For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I grow dispassionate.' It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate.

"For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

/.../

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Apparently, from a certain point on, some things are effortless.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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khlawng
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by khlawng » Mon May 08, 2017 11:05 am

binocular wrote:
Apparently, from a certain point on, some things are effortless.
absolutely correct.
but i question if a sotapanna has reached this point?
afterall, he is not free from sensual desire and ill will.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Mon May 08, 2017 2:42 pm

khlawng wrote:unfortnuately, you missed out the worst kind.
verbatim regurgitators.
they are by far more harmful than distortors.
No, distortors destroy the Dhamma. Regurgitators do not.
khlawng wrote:If all u have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
At least try to get the hammer first. It's much worse to have nothing and make up things out of thin air.

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khlawng
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by khlawng » Tue May 09, 2017 12:28 am

santa100 wrote: No, distortors destroy the Dhamma. Regurgitators do not.
distortors are easy to spot.
they have a agenda and ulterior motive.
more often they come across as disingenuous.

regurgitators does something worst.
they apply the buddha's teaching without:
context, understanding, and backing it up with experience.
they come across as genuine.
and they end up leading a lot of people down the wrong paths.

so that hammer in the wrong hands destroys more than just the dhamma.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Tue May 09, 2017 12:49 am

khlawng wrote:
santa100 wrote: No, distortors destroy the Dhamma. Regurgitators do not.
distortors are easy to spot.
they have a agenda and ulterior motive.
more often they come across as disingenuous.

regurgitators does something worst.
they apply the buddha's teaching without:
context, understanding, and backing it up with experience.
they come across as genuine.
and they end up leading a lot of people down the wrong paths.

so that hammer in the wrong hands destroys more than just the dhamma.
No, you have the definitions completely up side down. It is the distortors that have the evil agenda and they're harder to spot. Why? because it is them, not the regurgitators, who apply the Buddha's teaching without providing context and understanding. If they don't provide any sutta evidence, then they can say anything to everything. The regurgitators are at least bound by the very suttas and backup literatures that they always provide in their posts. They cannot get away with the very sutta evidence that they provide. The distortors? they'll say anything they want and will get away without any problem. They are the ones who destroy the Dhamma and everyone including themselves.

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Mr Man
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by Mr Man » Tue May 09, 2017 6:47 am

khlawng wrote:
santa100 wrote: No, distortors destroy the Dhamma. Regurgitators do not.
distortors are easy to spot.
they have a agenda and ulterior motive.
more often they come across as disingenuous.

regurgitators does something worst.
they apply the buddha's teaching without:
context, understanding, and backing it up with experience.
they come across as genuine.
and they end up leading a lot of people down the wrong paths.

so that hammer in the wrong hands destroys more than just the dhamma.
:goodpost:

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khlawng
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by khlawng » Tue May 09, 2017 8:35 am

santa100 wrote: No, you have the definitions completely up side down. It is the distortors that have the evil agenda and they're harder to spot. Why? because it is them, not the regurgitators, who apply the Buddha's teaching without providing context and understanding. If they don't provide any sutta evidence, then they can say anything to everything. The regurgitators are at least bound by the very suttas and backup literatures that they always provide in their posts. They cannot get away with the very sutta evidence that they provide. The distortors? they'll say anything they want and will get away without any problem. They are the ones who destroy the Dhamma and everyone including themselves.
there is a certain sect of buddhism,
where monks/nuns consume food after noon,
in the guise that this is medicine to "repair" their bodies,
which according to the vinaya, is allowed.
are they distortors or regurgitators?

another is a scholar,
who is well verse in the sutta,
but never meditated in his live,
but would apply the sutta verbatim,
to describe to a beginner,
such and such is insight,
such and such is not.
are they distortors or regurgitators?

regurgitators don't quote the sutta out of malice.
they do it because its their only tool.
they do it out of ignorance and often with good intention.
but the chances of causing harm far outweighs the benefit.

i am not saying don't read or befriend the sutta.
but make sure when using them, quote them wisely.
thats all i have to say about this.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by ganegaar » Tue May 09, 2017 10:50 am

santa100 wrote:... all your questions simply boil down to proof about restraint vs abstain. Notice the Buddha in AN 5.179 explicitly provided 2 key points: the definition of "restraint in the Five Precepts" as "abstaining from breaking the Five Precepts" - paras 2, 3, and 4. ..., the Buddha would not have emphasized that the Sotapanna observes the Five Precepts to such a degree that is "untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration." in that same sutta. ...
I have now read the pali word used, "paṭivirato hoti" which gets translated as "abstain from" or "restrains", and came accross this different thread regarding the meaning of "aarati virati pativirati"

So, as many others have pointed out, I agree with the view that a Sotapana cannot break any of the five precepts!.
I suppose the confusion is inevitable when translating because it would be a little difficult to appropriately translate the word Pativirati, specially when compared to "arati, virati" and "veramani".

Yet I think it is a very good thing @R111 brought this up discussion, because it did clarify this topic!
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Tue May 09, 2017 12:54 pm

Imho

What it boils down to actually is that the Buddha never proclaimed that it is impossible, there are six things that are truly impossible for a Sotapanna to do according to the Tipitaka. Like it or not that is what has been proclaimed as impossible, that which cannot happen. Everything else by direct implication can happen, it is possible, not impossible. This is basic logic.

Second thing is that equating virtues dear to noble ones to the five precepts has never been proclaimed by the Buddha either.

Third thing is equating abstaining from and subsided to impossible and cannot happen.

By all means go ahead and do the three i dont even care anymore, if an Ajahn in the 20th century said it then its good enough for you, nevermind that there is no explicit Sutta or commentary reference... who cares right.

As for ruining Buddhism by bringing this up, do you even realize the state of Theravada Buddhism and how many sects it is split into and how dogmatic the instutionalized Buddhism is? Do you think right view is prevalent? In that case you better check the calendar and read the Tipitaka because this view i presented is not 1/1000nd part as dangerous, unreasonable or controversial compared to the sects within the Theravada.
We are discussing mere behavior here and what is possible and what is not possible for a Sotapanna to do.

What does it even matter if a lay Sotapanna can drink a beer with his lay buddies? The problem is that it challenges statements of the modern "Arahants" and your teacher loses credibility and there is no proof whatsoever, that is the problem.

I am just a person who pointed this out and i see no proof in this thread, ive been insulted and accused of ruining Buddhism by people who claim to know the Mind of the Buddha.

It is no surprise to me tho, people believe that it is possible to be visited by the Buddha, why wouldnt they belive whatever the heck their teacher says.

I am totally with Ven. Nanavira on this one and if someone knows of living monks who share similar views lmk please.

People can check out Brahmajala Sutta perhaps it will open your eyes to how much being set in right view matters much more so than merely keeping precepts also contemplate the lay state of a Sotapanna and the implications of it.

Also think about implications of me being right and how many people blocked themselves from heavenly rebirth and path realization just by denouncing Ven. Nanavira. According to the commentary anyways.

The only reasonable thing to do is to stay far far far away from this subject and definitely not form any kind of view or judgement either way, that is the last thing one should do because this is the only way to lose. Consider the pros and cons, saying im not sure cant hurt you!
Last edited by R1111 = rightviewftw on Tue May 09, 2017 2:06 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Tue May 09, 2017 1:25 pm

ganegaar wrote:I have now read the pali word used, "paṭivirato hoti" which gets translated as "abstain from" or "restrains", and came accross this different thread regarding the meaning of "aarati virati pativirati"

So, as many others have pointed out, I agree with the view that a Sotapana cannot break any of the five precepts!.
I'm glad you spent time researching and reading sutta references and came up with the proper conclusion. :anjali: Those who actually lend ears are indeed rare. It's a dying breed and as already mentioned, only a matter of time until the Dhamm drum goes completely silent. But hey, knowing it full well, they'll keep doing what they're doing 'til the very end. They owe the Buddha too much for His gift and will never give up.
SN 6.1 wrote:Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he did so, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses — born and growing in the water — might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water — so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by ganegaar » Wed May 10, 2017 8:10 am

@R1111, I am sorry that the discussion turned a little personal and at times a little sour as well, and the feelings are hurt :(.
How this discussion turned out to be: It is a reminder to all of us, that we have lot more things to achieve, a lot more things to learn, both in our spiritual progress and in our lives, is it not?
R1111 wrote: What it boils down to actually is that the Buddha never proclaimed that it is impossible, there are six things that are truly impossible for a Sotapanna to do according to the Tipitaka. Like it or not that is what has been proclaimed as impossible, that which cannot happen. Everything else by direct implication can happen, it is possible, not impossible. This is basic logic.
He did not say with same words that it is impossible as with the six things, in that you are right. However, the five precepts are used as a benchmark (among other things) to test oneself, to test oneself to have attained the Sotapana state or not, according to the AN 5.179. The choice of words (in pali) to describe the situation is interesting and of utmost importance. (a wonderful comparative translation here >>)
My current understanding about it is:
A sotapana would look at the five precepts from a view point not available for an ordinary person (of being attained such high mental state), so that, the "restrain" is automatic, or rather it is "restrained by way of reasoning". It is restrained because he do not have the first two fretters, sakkhaya dhitti (self view? better not to have translated that word either!) and vicikicci (doubt on the path, doubt on Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha), which automatically leads to a rapid reasoning away from committing anything to break the five precepts.
So for a Sotapana, it is crystal clear that there is no gain (and in fact a loss) in breaking a precept. And a Sotapana dwells in a happiness here and now ( about his understanding of the world and realization of the truth, he rejoices in the qualities of the Buddha Dhamma and Sangha), which implicitly makes it breaking a precept "a paradox"!, there is no happiness or advantage he gains by breaking one.
R1111 wrote:
...Also think about implications of me being right and how many people blocked themselves from heavenly rebirth and path realization just by denouncing Ven. Nanavira. According to the commentary anyways.
Not aware of what Ven. Nanavira said and what all that is about, but about our discussion here with regard to the OP:
Have you considered the implication of us being wrong (in thinking a Sotapana can break 5 precepts)? we might wrongly estimate our progress in the path (if we think a Sotapana can break the 5 precepts), which might be counter productive, and even may be illusive.
But consider the other side, say we accept the view a Sotapana cannot break the 5 precepts, only thing can happen is that we may achieve a higher goal than what we think of what we have achieved!,
compared to the other alternative..., I would rather test myself when I cannot break any of the 5 precepts by way of automatic reasoning!
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Wed May 10, 2017 8:41 am

You are not seeing the danger that i am pointing out,
I will extrapolate let me know if it makes more sense;
Person A announces an attainment of Stream Entry goes on to break a precept
Person B says "Person A is certainly not Ariya because he broke the precept, he has no Attainment and claimed wrongly"
Person C doesnt even know about the claim of Ariyahood but merely says "Person A is certainly not Ariya for a Sotapanna would never break the five precepts"
If person A is indeed Ariya at this point then both C and B have reviled a Noble One with "worst accusations and denial of his special qualities".
This is one of the worst offenses and blocks heavenly rebirth and path realization, rendering both unable to go to heavens after death and unable to realize higher paths. Even a Sotapanna can occur this offense and wont be able to attain second path.

As i see it the risk is enormous, a smart person would not even take it at a billion to one odds imo. Not even close.

Furthermore a person prone to delusion might just as easily delude himself thinking : i dont break five precepts, i must be a sotapanna and become complacent.

A sotapanna looks at precepts diffrently it is not wise to assume that a ordinary person would know how he looks at them for that knowledge is unavailable to him and the gap cannot be estimated. It is like trying to know what is unknown, one cant know that is the nature of it. If one could know then one would be Ariya himself.
It is not wise to make these conclusions.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by SarathW » Wed May 10, 2017 9:08 am

There is an assurance that the Sotapanna will never be born in an animal womb.
Has the Sotapanna got the special privilege that s/she can break the five precepts but will never be born in the animal womb?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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ganegaar
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by ganegaar » Wed May 10, 2017 9:15 am

R1111 wrote:...
If person A is indeed Ariya at this point then both C and B have reviled a Noble One with "worst accusations and denial of his special qualities".
This is one of the worst offenses and blocks heavenly rebirth and path realization, rendering both unable to go to heavens after death and unable to realize higher paths. Even a Sotapanna can occur this offense and wont be able to attain second path.
This is something that I was not aware of :(, that one might get so much a bad consequences for mistakenly doubting a noble one. Yet, for all this to happen:
A has to be a Sotapana, as well as has to declare himself, and then commit the offense and B has to come to know of all of it, and B has to have reviled the noble one as well... These days, Sotapana's are so rare, and Sotapana's in lay people even more so, this sounds a very rare possibility, isn't it?

Yes, you are right, I do not grasp the danger you are pointing at :(, and I see my mind finding excuses to defend my point of view, rather than being open to your view point :(, I have so much room to improve!.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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