R1111 wrote:In regards to the Vinaya i dont know about the story, lmk if you find out.
You are the one aspiring to ordain, you should know these things, title, chapter, and verse, especially since this is a topic of your interest.
I personally dont see any reason to categorically deny people attainments, if they are right then Sadhu if not then it is bad enough as it is for them. if they teach wrong view then it is their problem and they can be challenged for scriptural support to the teachings.
Here's a real example: I was once acquainted with a Buddhist who was convinced that he was enlightened, he said that he knows exactly what the Buddha knew. He was bossy and patronizing toward me and other people (all lays, including him). Him providing scriptural support for what he claimed was off limits for him, he dismissed the Pali Canon without even having read it. Eventually, I started mocking him and his "enlightenment" (e.g. "So you're enlightened, eh? No s***!"). He didn't understand and kept telling me that I was on the outside, that I didn't know, that I was supposed to do things as he does them (and forget about the Pali Canon). He considered me his student, even though no vow and no agreement to this effect had been made.
In hindsight, I can say that the whole situation was very displeasing, to say the least, for all of us. Given this Buddhist's bossiness and his demand for our submission, I felt jaded, I felt that I am nothing more but a slightly alive thing, a puppet, a cog in the system, and that true happiness can be attained only if one gives in to being such a puppet. I resented the power that he had over us and I resented the system that was making this kind of power-gaming possible.
As Ven. Nanavira said the point is to become Ariya yourself, not to worship them or put them on a pedestal.
I agree with that, however Nanavira Thera is one of the most controversial persons in Buddhism in the last 100 years, so referring to him can be a potentially problematic matter. Buddhist culture still seems to be heavily focused on putting monks and anyone else who seems to have or who claims to have any attainment on a pedestal. I think this can create resentment in ordinary people, which can then become expressed in criticism of those monks and supposedly attained lays, and in denying their attainment. IOW, it's not just about the intentions of an individual critic or denier, it's also something bigger than that, it's systemic.
As i see it if this is to be achieved one is better off focusing on one's own attainments.
Individualism is sometimes nothing but an attempt to maintain the social status quo, however dysfunctional it may be.
“One man’s “magic” is another man’s engineering. “Supernatural” is a null word.”
- Robert Heinlein