Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

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R1111 = rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat May 06, 2017 6:30 pm

santa100 wrote:After 57 posts in this thread, the readers have been presented with 2 sides of the topic: one with tons of evidences from suttas, teachers, and commentaries; and one without a single shred of evidence. I'd advise folks to read all the provided posts (those with explicitly stated sutta names, teachers, and commentaries; not those with only empty words/rhetoric) and decide for yourself what version is in line with the Dhamma and which one is not. It's not the first time me and the OP engage in discussions about the same topic. This thread here should give some interesting background info. and where we're coming from.
It is not correct that i have not presentee any Sutta evidence. I have used the exact same Suttas as you and more including Ratana Sutta and the instances where the impossible deeds have been described. Furthermore i have explained every word like subsiding, restraining, virtues dear to noble ones and did not contradict it is all in line with the Sutta pitaka.
Your side however cant explain why the Buddha never said that he cannot break The Five precepts and why it was not stated among things that are impossible of which he did talk about on several occasions. Nor do you have any answers for the other etymological problems that you have been presented with.

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binocular
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by binocular » Sat May 06, 2017 6:36 pm

R1111 wrote:/.../
Thats what i think, if that is not virtuous enough
If that is not virtuous enough??
What a strange thing to say.

So you're still continuing your theme from the OP --
R1111 wrote:As i see it, Not being able to break any of the Five theory doesnt have much foothold and furthermore is imo an evil view which doesn't go well with the Sutta Pitaka.
Why is it evil?
Because it opens up for denouncing them because their virtue does not seem Holy enough, denying their Attainment.
If one held view that It is possible for them to break #2,3,4&5 then it is not as big of adeal because that would not lead to saying "You dont have the Attainment" even if one was wrong in his view.
So it's still about social acceptance, along with sufficient reverence for the sotapanna.

Are you from a traditionally Buddhist country, or come from a traditional Buddhist background?
If yes, then I can readily understand how by your standards, people here in the West generally don't show enough respect for people on the intermediate stages of the path (or even the final stage, for that matter).
I know that Asians not rarely consider Westerners as rude and as not showing proper respect to monks, religious texts, temples, stupas, etc.

If the above is correct, then it seems that what you've been trying to do is to establish canonical support that sotapannas deserve more respect than we [Westerners] give them.


Anyway, not trying to do metadiscussion, it just seems that there is an underlying theme here in this thread that is not being directly addressed, and that this is why the discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere. So I'm trying to bring that out in the open.

R1111 = rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat May 06, 2017 6:48 pm

robertk wrote:along with viccikiccha and wrong view the sotapanna has eradicated machariya ( avarice). So I cant see how he could steal, the conditions just cant arise, right?
Not sure about this one.
I dont think he could steal either but im not sure what exactly is meant by stealing or taking what is not given, degrees and how it would apply to real life situations transcending time and culture so i dont know really. I prefer not guessing. Would be nice if you could refer to the source

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat May 06, 2017 6:59 pm

binocular wrote:...
Just want to establish if it is a view or not, if it has been explicitly stated or not, if it has been implied beyond reasonable doubt or not. It is a quite important view as Ven. Nanavira has pointed out as well, it is a problematic view to cling to and i think there is a case for saying that if true it is slandering the Buddha as well and maybe even Reviling Noble Ones if one was to denounce a Sotapanna because of it.

santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Sat May 06, 2017 7:02 pm

R1111 wrote:Your side however cant explain why the Buddha never said that he cannot break The Five precepts and why it was not stated among things that are impossible of which he did talk about on several occasions. Nor do you have any answers for the other etymological problems that you have been presented with.
I find it's mind-boggling that while I repeatedly providing suttas and commentaries to you, you have not provided a single quote from a single sutta. I have done my part, but you have not done yours. You constantly dodge my direct questions so don't expect me to answer yours while you still owe me answers. Why do you keep avoiding my question below?
santa100 wrote:
R1111 wrote:If you had read my OP you would see that i explained that unbroken virtues dont necessarily mean five precepts and 5.179 is for Sariputta to proclaim Sotapannas after teacher's death without risking being wrong
You've just proved to everyone that you don't even bother reading suttas. Where do you get the wild idea that "AN 5.179 is for Sariputta to proclaim Sotapannas after teacher's death?". From AN 5.179, it was the Blessed One who spoke and the Five Precepts there are as explicit as they can get. Now if you want to challenge something, at least show some backup suttas and literature. Otherwise, it's simply your own unsupported opinion.
AN 5.179 wrote:So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: “Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: ‘Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!’

“Now, in terms of which five training rules is he restrained?

“There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from taking what is not given, abstains from illicit sex, abstains from lying, abstains from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat May 06, 2017 7:09 pm

I have edited that post and as i said key words are restrained and abstains, none of these imply that it cannot happen. That Sutta as i read it tells Sariputta that if a householder has all those qualities the he can say that he is a Sotapanna without risking being wrong. It is not proof, frankly it is hardly suggestive evidence if words restrained and abstains are taken into account. Keep in mind that only a Buddha can know for sure if stream entry is attained or not and he would have proclaimed trees to be stream winners if they could distinguish what was rightly spoken.

Did i answer it? Now your turn i guess.. but you wont answer right, because that is how you discuss things, in terms of owing and keeping score, if you dont accept my answer then you dont have to answer right.

You should realize that even if i ignored all of you and simply posed a question deserving a categorical answer or a question deserving an analytical answer you should answer it accordingly.
Last edited by R1111 = rightviewftw on Sat May 06, 2017 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Sat May 06, 2017 7:18 pm

R1111 wrote:I have edited that post and as i said key words are restrained and abstains, none of these imply that it cannot happen. That Sutta as i read it tells Sariputta that if a householder has all those qualities the he can say that he is a Sotapanna without risking being wrong. It is not proof, frankly it is hardly suggestive evidence if words restrained and abstains are taken into account.
Ok, seems like we're getting somewhere now that you have withdrawn that wrong statement of yours, that "AN 5.179 is for Sariputta to proclaim Sotapannas after teacher's death" which is absolutely baseless. Now, back to your argument, all your questions simply boil down to proof about restraint vs abstain. Notice the Buddha in AN 5.179 explicitly provided 2 key points: the definition of "restraint in the Five Precepts" as "abstaining from breaking the Five Precepts" - paras 2, 3, and 4. Your claim of "hardly suggestive evidence" has no basis. Otherwise, the Buddha would not have emphasized that the Sotapanna observes the Five Precepts to such a degree that is "untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration." in that same sutta. In other words, if the strict observance was "hardly suggestive" as you wrongfully think, the Buddha would've never gone to great length using 8 key words to emphasize 1 single point.
Last edited by santa100 on Sat May 06, 2017 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat May 06, 2017 7:23 pm

Why is it not on list of impossible things then? If he wanted to make that point he had 40 years to do it..

santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Sat May 06, 2017 7:26 pm

R1111 wrote:Why is it not on list of impossible things then? If he wanted to make that point he had 40 years to do it..
Because the Buddha expected you to read more suttas, like all those I have provided. Not just 1 or 2. Why do you think there are multiple Nikayas, not just 1 Nikaya?

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat May 06, 2017 7:28 pm

santa100 wrote:
R1111 wrote:Why is it not on list of impossible things then? If he wanted to make that point he had 40 years to do it..
Because the Buddha expected you to read more suttas, like all those I have provided. Not just 1 or 2. Why do you think there are multiple Nikayas, not just 1 Nikaya?
lol
Are you serious to imply to know The Tathagatas mind??
Stop Slandering The Tathagata.
Seriously you should learn to say "idk" there is no shame in admitting it instead of saying such rediculous things.
Last edited by R1111 = rightviewftw on Sat May 06, 2017 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Sat May 06, 2017 7:33 pm

R1111 wrote:
santa100 wrote:
R1111 wrote:Why is it not on list of impossible things then? If he wanted to make that point he had 40 years to do it..
Because the Buddha expected you to read more suttas, like all those I have provided. Not just 1 or 2. Why do you think there are multiple Nikayas, not just 1 Nikaya?
lol
Are you serious to imply to know The Tathagatas mind??
Stop Slandering The Tathagata.
I don't need to know the Tathagatas mind for this. Any teacher would expect his student to do multiple homeworks, not just 1 single homework. It's common sense and seems like you don't have one. I'll leave it to the readers of the forum to decide who is slandering the Buddha, you or me. The readers are smart and they don't need your help on that.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat May 06, 2017 7:37 pm

Classy insults and mind reading of Thatagata, you just lost all credibility as far as im concerned.

santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Sat May 06, 2017 7:43 pm

R1111 wrote:Classy insults and mind reading of Thatagata, you just lost all credibility as far as im concerned.
Oh, I'm nowhere near your class dude. From someone who used to ask whether its' ok for a Sotapanna to indulge in orgies, for that person to keep discussing about Sotapanna is totally absurd and a complete disgrace. I can't help but thinking your 2 OPs must have some relationship, now that I think about it, if you think it's ok for a Sotapanna to break the Five Precept, then that Sotapanna claimant can go to orgies every night without any problem. Now that's just wonderful. Congratulations on your successful bastardization of the Dhamma to a point beyond all recognition.
Last edited by santa100 on Sat May 06, 2017 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Sat May 06, 2017 7:56 pm

R1111 wrote:
santa100 wrote:
R1111 wrote:Thats a no to orgies too then? Anal ok?
Thank you for further proving my point. I should also add the key word "hypocrisy" to your arsenal knowing that you are currently on some retreat, doing some deep meditation in your comfy kuti somewhere.
I gotta stop otherwise ill regret it. Nice talk.keep in mind multiple wifes were standard at the time and lay sotapannas and even sakidagamis enjoy sex.
Ok, I'll let you go back to your kuti. Seems like there're still a lot of work to be done. Good luck.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat May 06, 2017 8:01 pm

Would be good if mods removed posts conflicting w rules

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