Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

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SteRo
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by SteRo »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:45 am I've told you my understanding and invited you to correct me by explaining yours. You have not.
I have expressed my understanding which you have rejected, so :shrug:

But I do not claim that my understanding would comply with the Theravada commentaries because I have not studied these in detail but looked into them only sporadically. So from my perspective our views, yours and mine, are both private views and not reliable as to Theravada doctrine.
Last edited by SteRo on Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:57 am
270. “It is impossible, monks, it cannot happen that one endowed with right-view could regard any formation as a self. That is not possible. However, it is possible, monks, that an ordinary person could regard any formation as a self. That is possible.”
Thank you Bhikkhy Pesala. Regarding the above, I understand 'self' here to specifically mean a permanent, unchanging self. As I understand the suttas, conceit means that beyond stream entry it is still possible to temporarily cling to ideas and identify with things as self because of ignorance and delusion. Am I wrong to see it this way? If so, what is the correct way?

An example: someone beyond stream entry may have the idea 'I am someone who has attained stream-entry.' They KNOW that this does not hold forever, yet they are still capable of being attached to that idea and forgetting that on the absolute level it's not true. With conceit, greed and aversion it feels true and is easy to fall into without strong mindfulness. At non-returning level, the potential for the delusion 'someone who' falls away completely and only the vague sense of 'I am' remains.
Last edited by Dhamma Chameleon on Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
SteRo
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

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Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:08 am As I understand the suttas, conceit means that beyond stream entry it is still possible to temporarily cling to ideas and identify with things as self because of ignorance and delusion. Am I wrong to see it this way? If so, what is the correct way?
What is decisive here is how you understand "temporarily cling to ideas and identify with things" because e.g. sensual desire has not been abandoned by sotapanna yet even though self-identification with objects of desire has been abandoned. That's a crucial point and here the role of wrong view which has been abandoned by sotapanna is what makes the difference between sotapanna and worldling because both are said to have sensual desire. Now from my perspective it is wrong view that nurtures clinging but traces of sensual desire don't lead to clinging in case of sotapanna.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:19 am What is decisive here is how you understand "temporarily cling to ideas and identify with things" because e.g. sensual desire has not been abandoned by sotapanna yet even though self-identification with objects of desire has been abandoned.
Yes, I've edited my post above with an example. I am thinking more of self-identification with concepts and ideas about the self.
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

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Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:08 am An example: someone beyond stream entry may have the idea 'I am someone who has attained stream-entry.'
But that's personality view abandoned by sotapanna.

The problem here is the confusion of full-fledged conceptual views or beliefs with the conceit 'I am'. The conceit 'I am' is momentary and on the level of intuition. That does not exclude that it may evolve into full-fledged conceptual personality views or beliefs but it does not do so in case of sotapanna although sotapanna harbors intuitive 'I am' conceit. Why is this so? Because when the conceit 'I am' sets off to evolve into full-fledged conceptual personality view the knowing of the sotapanna obstructs this.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:38 am
Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:08 am An example: someone beyond stream entry may have the idea 'I am someone who has attained stream-entry.'
But that's personality view abandoned by sotapanna.

The problem here is the confusion of full-fledged conceptual views or beliefs with the conceit 'I am'. The conceit 'I am' is momentary and on the level of intuition. That does not exclude that it may evolve into full-fledged conceptual personality views or beliefs but it does not do so in case of sotapanna although sotapanna harbors intuitive 'I am' conceit. Why is this so? Because when the conceit 'I am' sets off to evolve into full-fledged conceptual personality view the knowing of the sotapanna obstructs this.
I am saying that it is possible to temporarily cling to ideas and concepts about the self beyond stream entry, without actually believing that they are permanently true, due to the greed, ill-will and delusion that remain. That this cognitive dissonance is possible because right view is knowledge that can be obscured by delusion even though the knowledge remains; it is not un-known, but it needs to be remembered. Haven't you ever forgotten to act according to something which you actually know to be true? It's just that beyond stream entry there is absolutely no doubt about that knowledge being true, whilst before it's still possible to doubt it because you've not had a temporary direct experience of it that dispels doubt.

This might seem like a technical issue, the reason why I think it's important is because it explains how people beyond stream entry can continue to break the precepts. There is some sort of idea about the self involved as the basis for such actions, on top of the idea 'I am'. The more reduced someone's ideas about self become, the less likely they are to break the precepts. When greed and aversion are gone only subtle clinging and sense of 'I am' remains, so to me it seems clear that greed and aversion are related to a grosser or greater sense of 'I am'.

My intention is to create some theoretical room for the possibility of precept-breaking beyond stream entry with a theory about how it happens.
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

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What is Stable Morality?
The moral conduct that culminates in the attainment of path consciousness is called stable morality. Morality is a supporting condition for the path. With the attainment of the path, morality becomes stable and irreversible. From this time onwards, a person will not kill any sentient being, great or small, under any circumstances. He or she always maintains morality with steadfast confidence and wisdom. The precept to abstain from killing living beings becomes stable, so he or she is totally free from suffering in lower realms. In future lives too he or she will never be shameless or immoral. The Noble One is firmly established in natural morality and natural goodness, so can never become a robber, a murderer, a hunter, or a thief. A Noble One cannot be reborn in hell, as an animal, hungry ghost, or demon. Due to stable morality, a Noble One avoids these inferior existences. These are the powers and benefits of stable morality, which is only achievable in this dispensation.
Scrupulous Integrity
235. Whatever evil deed he or she commits, either by body, speech, or mind, one who has seen the Path is incapable of concealing it. This precious jewel is in the Saṅgha. By this truth may there be peace!
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SteRo
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by SteRo »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:59 am
SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:38 am
Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:08 am An example: someone beyond stream entry may have the idea 'I am someone who has attained stream-entry.'
But that's personality view abandoned by sotapanna.

The problem here is the confusion of full-fledged conceptual views or beliefs with the conceit 'I am'. The conceit 'I am' is momentary and on the level of intuition. That does not exclude that it may evolve into full-fledged conceptual personality views or beliefs but it does not do so in case of sotapanna although sotapanna harbors intuitive 'I am' conceit. Why is this so? Because when the conceit 'I am' sets off to evolve into full-fledged conceptual personality view the knowing of the sotapanna obstructs this.
I am saying that it is possible to temporarily cling to ideas and concepts about the self beyond stream entry,...
I don't think so but then we should keep in mind that both of us cannot quote from abhidhamma to support our interpretations. So actually we should have this conversion in the 'conection to other paths' section.
Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:59 am My intention is to create some theoretical room for the possibility of precept-breaking beyond stream entry with a theory about how it happens.
I don't think that's wise because sotapanna has abandoned lower rebirths, so it seems to be appropriate to consider why sotapanna does not break precepts.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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