Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

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R1111 = rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Thu May 04, 2017 7:32 pm

santa100 wrote:
R1111 wrote:Where did the Buddha say this? Is this something u figured out by urself? Why did the Buddha not say that he cannot break the five precepts and said that five fearful animosities have subsided?Why did he not say it among things a Sotapanna cant do?
Do u suggest that Buddha words?
Sotapannas dont kill and dont do other things but u are putting words in Buddha's mouth if you say breaking five precepts cannot happen and subsided means eradicated.
Obviously you haven't read my post with sutta references, Ven. Bodhi's note, and the Commentary. Since I have already provided backup references on my part, I will ask you in return: please provide suttas and backup references to support your claim that "it's possible for a Sotapanna to break the Five Precepts and/or commit a major wrongdoing?
Nope that is not how this works, you have not provided any evidence apart from your own personal interpretation of what it means to be accomplished in virtue and what unbroken virtues are. My OP adressed the unbroken part and i explained it without putting words in The Buddhas mouth, i dont have to prove anything because i am only pointing to the lack of proof and inconsistencies in your interpretation. You are saying it is so and everything else is false but have no Sutta reference and you are not wiilling to explain the inconsistecies which u showed by refusing to answer my questions.
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santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Thu May 04, 2017 7:36 pm

R1111 wrote:Nope that is not how this works, you have not provided any evidence apart from your own personal interpretation of what it means to be accomplished in virtue and what unbroken virtues are. My OP adressed the unbroken part and i explained it without putting words in The Buddhas mouth, i dont have to prove anything because i am only pointing to the lack of proof and inconsistencies in your interpretation.
You are the one who puts words into the Buddha's mouth. I will ask you one more time, please provide the exact sutta references and Commentary like I did, NOT your own interpretation, to support your claim that "it is possible for a Sotapanna to break the Five Precepts and/or commit a major wrongdoing". Beside, you have not answered my question on your flaw logic about abusing heroine. I ask this question for the specific purpose to point out where you go wrong.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Thu May 04, 2017 8:00 pm

santa100 wrote:I will ask you one more time, please provide the exact sutta references and Commentary like I did, NOT your own interpretation, to support your claim that "it is possible for a Sotapanna to break the Five Precepts and/or commit a major wrongdoing".
1. He can break minor and lesser rules not ones fundamental to holy life.
2. Buddha did not explicitly define what those are
3. Five animosities have merely subsided.
4. He does offenses which he recovers from
5. Buddha has said that he does not kill
6. Sarakaani was alcoholic and became ariya so it is unlikely that it fundamnetal to holy life unlike killing.
7. Buddha has several times expounded on what is impossible
8 . In regards to minor and lesser rules he said "why is it possible? Because it is not said to be impossible"

Im on my phone but i assure you all these points are from Sutta.
In regards to heroin "he said intoxicants" that cause heedlessness.

Questions for you:
Why did the Buddha not put it on the list of the impossible?
How was Sarkaani able to attain stream entry if it is fundamental to holy life to not break that precept?
Why is the word subsided used?
Why was it not expounded by the Buddha? Seems crucial doesnt it.

The view you are presenting as obvious does not seem to be so obvious when scrutinized yet you say this is true everything else is false. I merely say what was said by the Blessed one and i have not put words in his mouth and no questioning your statement does not equal me making a claim, i merely challenge yours because it is a view and not a fact.

santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Thu May 04, 2017 9:44 pm

R1111 wrote:Questions for you:
Why did the Buddha not put it on the list of the impossible?
How was Sarkaani able to attain stream entry if it is fundamental to holy life to not break that precept?
Why is the word subsided used?
Why was it not expounded by the Buddha? Seems crucial doesnt it.

The view you are presenting as obvious does not seem to be so obvious when scrutinized yet you say this is true everything else is false. I merely say what was said by the Blessed one and i have not put words in his mouth and no questioning your statement does not equal me making a claim, i merely challenge yours because it is a view and not a fact.
Uh uh, that wont' cut it. I gave you the exact suttas, plus Ven. Bodhi's note, plus the Comy. reference. You'll need to provide me the exact same thing in order to back up your claim that it's possible for a Sotapanna to break the Five Precepts and commit a major wrongdoing. If you just "merely say what was said by the Blessed One" then why you still have not provided the exact suttas and any commentary? "I'll be happy to answer all your questions once you've done your part first.

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ganegaar
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by ganegaar » Fri May 05, 2017 3:52 am

Whether a Sotapana can break 5 precepts may not be that relevant, because a more qualifying test (Whether one has achieved the state) would be the "inability to hide one's own wrong doings" as specified in Ratana sutta.
This is because, a person who is destined to end rebirth will not have the volition to hide anything, because hiding a wrong doing is implying of "expecting to avoid its harmful results", thus the expectation of a future existence., a Sotapana would certainly not have a wish for that type of an existence, would he?
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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robertk
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by robertk » Fri May 05, 2017 4:39 am

Sarakaani was alcoholic and became ariya so it is unlikely that it fundamnetal to holy life unlike killing
angulimala was a killer and became arahat.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Fri May 05, 2017 6:55 am

Again i do not say that the Buddha said that a Sotapanna can break the five precepts, i am challenging your statement: Sotapanna cannot break the five precepts.
Absense of proof is not proof of absence, my statement is simply thus: It has not been proclaimed by the Blessed One that a Sotapanna cannot break the five precepts, that it cannot happen. Therefore i am not putting words in the Buddhas mouth when i say that it is a view. All my questions are valid and should be answered or just admit that it is a view already.

You statement: A Sotapanna cannot break the five precepts, it is impossible, cannot happen- everything else is false. Is challenged for proof and if proof beyond reasonable doubt is absent then it cannot be stated as a fact, furthermore if you dont have a good explaination for my questions your statement becomes contradictory and suspect.
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Fri May 05, 2017 6:59 am

robertk wrote:
Sarakaani was alcoholic and became ariya so it is unlikely that it fundamnetal to holy life unlike killing
angulimala was a killer and became arahat.
He held wrong view and received a discourse specifically on killing. You are welcome extrapolate on the presumed connection.

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robertk
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by robertk » Fri May 05, 2017 7:06 am

How was Sarkaani able to attain stream entry if it is fundamental to holy life to not break that precept?
Because, as with Angulimala, and indeed all disciples, he developed right view culminating in the entire eightfold path: i.e. true vipassana. He became a sotapanna and can never indulge in alcohol.again.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Fri May 05, 2017 7:09 am

robertk wrote:He became a sotapanna and can never indulge in alcohol.again.
You are going in circles, this has not been proclaimed by the Blessed One. It may be true(rather unlikely) but it cannot be stated as a fact.

I see no proof here from neither of you and you are refusing to adress my questions.

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robertk
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by robertk » Fri May 05, 2017 7:22 am

R1111 wrote:
robertk wrote:He became a sotapanna and can never indulge in alcohol.again.
You are going in circles, this has not been proclaimed by the Blessed One. It may be true(rather unlikely) but it cannot be stated as a fact.

I see no proof here from neither of you and you are refusing to adress my questions.
what question do you have thst was not addressed?
Do you agree thst after sarakani became sotapanna he stopped drinking, or do you have some citation showing he kept drinking?

it is like the case of Santati (sp?) the kings minister who was on a 7 day drinking binge with a group of prostitutes, who after seeing and listening to the Buddha, the alcohol in his blood literally burnt up and he attained arahat there and then.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Fri May 05, 2017 7:38 am

" quote: what question do you have thst was not adresse d?
Do you agree thst after sarakani became sotapanna he stopped drinking, or do you have some citation showing he kept drinking?
" end quote.

How can i know if he stopped drinking or not? I neither think nor dont think that he stopped. I dont know afaik nobody can know for sure since it has not been expounded.

Questions for you:Why did the Buddha not put it on the list of the impossible?
Why is the word subsided used?
Why was it not explicitly expounded by the Buddha?

binocular
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by binocular » Fri May 05, 2017 8:15 am

R1111 wrote:Questions for you:Why did the Buddha not put it on the list of the impossible?
Why is the word subsided used?
Why was it not explicitly expounded by the Buddha?
The immediate objection to such questions is that they can lead to speculation about another person's mind and intentions. Such speculation is problematic, as you have pointed out over and over again by warning not to put words into the Buddha's mouth.

However, on a general note, any attainment that is not yet the highest attainment is merely an intermediate attainment and therefore doesn't warrant that one declares victory and sits on one's laurels.

It is in this spirit that one is supposed to train oneself:
"Monks, I have known two qualities through experience: discontent with regard to skillful qualities[1] and unrelenting exertion. Relentlessly I exerted myself, [thinking,] 'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' From this heedfulness of mine was attained Awakening. From this heedfulness of mine was attained the unexcelled freedom from bondage.

"You, too, monks, should relentlessly exert yourselves, [thinking,] 'Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence.' You, too, in no long time will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence."' That's how you should train yourselves."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Fri May 05, 2017 12:56 pm

R1111, don't forget: "it's possible for a Sotapanna to commit a major wrongdoing" are your very own words. I asked you for a very simple task, which is to provide suttas and commentaries to back that up and you have not been able to do that. It's not that you have not read my sutta references. You deliberately ignored all of them. A Sotapanna is someone who "has fulfilled virtuous behaviors - AN 9.12" which are clearly defined as the Five Precepts per Ven. Bodhi and the Comy AND AN 5.179!. A Sotapanna fulfills those Five Precepts to such a degree that is "unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration - SN 12.41" I don't know what else the Buddha had to say to make it any clearer for you.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Fri May 05, 2017 4:56 pm

If you had read my OP you would see that i explained that unbroken virtues dont necessarily mean five precepts and 5.179 is for Sariputta to proclaim Sotapannas after teacher's death without risking being wrong . Im not going to discuss it more w you unless you are willing to answer questions i have posed.

To make it clear ge could say:
Sotapannas cant commit five fearful animosities.
Sotapannas dont steal, drink etc
Anything explicit like that will do.
Happy searching

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