Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:37 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:58 am
What a load of non-sense....
AN 10.61 says after hearing the Teachings, the faithful person engages in 'yoniso manasikara' (careful examination) about the teachings. AN 9.7 literally says it is "impossible" for an arahant to break the five precepts but the suttas appear to not literally say this about stream-enterers. The stock phrase in Chapter 55 of the SN is:
Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.
The first time I ever practised meditation was when I lived in a forest monastery in Thailand. To be honest, I saw lots of mosquitoes & ants lose life at the hands of monks & meditators; such as when the monks would have to work in the swamp or jungle & they would wipe off the hundreds of ants that might suddenly attack them when an ant nest was accidentally broken. Often, mosquitoes were crushed due to carelessness, such as scratching an itch without mindfulness. Yet I never noticed this loss of life of some insects ever break the concentration of the adept meditators because, kammically, the act is simply too trifling.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:40 am

Direct question Doot
Have you found a way to refute me to establish beyond reasonable doubt that i am wrong and it is not a view?
Or do you have anything new to contribute to discussion? As i considered this debate over 1 year ago for lack of opposition. If you want to be opposition you have to make a new thread or familiarize yourself with content here at very least then we can talk.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:41 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:40 am
Have you found a way to refute me to establish beyond reasonable doubt that i am wrong and it is not a view?
Sorry. But the Dhamma is being discussed rather than refuting "you". A stream-enterer has given up the view of "you". :roll:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:41 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:40 am
Have you found a way to refute me to establish beyond reasonable doubt that i am wrong and it is not a view?
Sorry. But the Dhamma is being discussed rather than refuting "you". A stream-enterer has given up the view of "you". :roll:
That is a no?
Idk you can discuss it is fine but you are DERAILING MY THREAD which i created for a specific purpose. It has been accomplished, now you are simply DERAILING MY THREAD. as long as i am around you have no right to do this! Standard forum etiquette. You are not discussing the topic by throwing in random quotations, you are speaking out of turn not speaking in according to what is being discussed in a manner of discussion.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

thepea
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by thepea » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:34 am
How do you come to that conclusion; that a S.W. has "so much"? Where is this written?
The gross sankharas that lead one to states of deprivation cannot be produced but the human realm and all the refined states are still available.
The Buddha compares this to fingernail of dust but this is still a rocky road to traverse. The meditator must practice perfect precepts for liberative wisdom to arise and for stream entry to occur.
This meditator may have to return to mundane lay-life after stream entry.
This individual may slightly exaggerate when speaking, your sila has been broken. This individual may have a child who comes in contact with lice, you may have to apply shampoo which kills them, you kill, your sila has been broken. You cannot meditate at the level where the liberative wisdom will arise to free you from the more refined states.
You can as lay-person go into seclusion if you can secure the time away from your obligations. In seclusion you can observe perfect precepts and practice at the level where liberative wisdom will arise to free you from these refined states.

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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:46 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:40 am
Direct question Doot
Have you found a way to refute me to establish beyond reasonable doubt that i am wrong and it is not a view?
Or do you have anything new to contribute to discussion? As i considered this debate over 1 year ago for lack of opposition. If you want to be opposition you have to make a new thread or familiarize yourself with content here at very least then we can talk.
The content is clear, namely, your personal interpretation of reading the following:
Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.
You appear to be imagining the above quote means to never ever transgress a precepts in the very slightest. But, in reality, it appears the above quote is only referring to sila that leads to concentration (rather than Jainism).

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:47 am

im am asking mods to do their job and remove all off-topic posts and clear up the thread. Also enforce basic rules for discussion. This is not a chat room.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:48 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:42 am
DERAILING MY THREAD
The Lord said:
The eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on eye contact... intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:52 am

Mods can split this thread, clear it up, rename or close it! I am OP and i want a coherent discussion which has been taking place, i would like it to continue in this fashion or close the thread.

If not then do at least rename this thread to reflect it's evolved nature because if this keeps on like this i will be leaving the thread and there is no challenging going on, no debate, no OP, nobody to officially challenge so it is not a fitting title.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:12 am, edited 8 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:55 am

thepea wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:45 am
This individual may have a child who comes in contact with lice, you may have to apply shampoo which kills them, you kill, your sila has been broken.
But the Lonaphala Sutta appears to say this will not break liberation:
'Now, a trifling evil act done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind [i.e., painful feelings cannot invade the mind and stay there], developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:11 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 9:08 am
There is an assurance that the Sotapanna will never be born in an animal womb.
Has the Sotapanna got the special privilege that s/she can break the five precepts but will never be born in the animal womb?
Greetings dhammafriend SarathW

I would assume the answer to your thoughtful question is "Yes" because it appears the animal womb as a result of kamma can only arise when there is "self-delusion", as follows:
Bhikkhus, a god, a human or any other good state would not be evident from actions born of greed, hate and delusion. Yet, bhikkhus, from actions born of greed, hate and delusion a hellish being, an animal birth a ghostly birth or some other bad state would be evident.

AN 6.39
When, due to a loss of mindfulness, a stream-enterer breaks a precept, it appears, upon wise reflection (yoniso manasikara), the stream-enterer understands its was the "element of ignorance" that broke the precept rather than "the self" or "me" or "I". But, as stated by many wise & knowledgeable posters on this thread, it would be a trifling action, such as killing an insect or taking some food without asking.


thepea
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by thepea » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:55 am
But the Lonaphala Sutta appears to say this will not break liberation:
What do you mean by break liberation?
I’m not suggesting a sotapanna can regress into states of deprivation, I’m saying they can break precepts which lead to agitating mind to level where they cannot work at the depths for liberstive wisdom to arise and further free them from the subtler bonds.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:37 am

i'm not aware of having posted any commentary; the excerpts from sotāpanna handbook are basically raw suttas. my educated opinion is bare sutta + my own discernment. if thats not sufficient i dont need to be attacked. the five precepts are not the basis of the holy life, and in and of themselves they are empty (the buddha taught this). i'm also not sure if, after reading your replies, you haven't confused me with other people. i am going to bow out of this discussion because i contributed what i thought was a worthy contribution and wish to curb any ill will.
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:52 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:37 am
i'm not aware of having posted any commentary; the excerpts from sotāpanna handbook are basically raw suttas.
I am sorry about calling it commentary, i just looked at it briefly saw same old Suttas and jumped to conclusion that it is on you to look thru this thread and see if there is anything new.
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:37 am
if thats not sufficient i dont need to be attacked. if thats not sufficient i dont need to be attacked. the five precepts are not the basis of the holy life, and in and of themselves they are empty (the buddha taught this). i'm also not sure if, after reading your replies, you haven't confused me with other people.
I was not sure what was your position and encouraged you to take one if you wanted to debate it. Seemed clear that you were making a point for Panca-Sila being "Virtues fundamental to holy life". When you raised this thread i just continued to Defend ITT, a criticism of my position ITT i have to adress, as i have the burden of proof here but it has to be legitimate. I will obv try to deflect as much illegitimate evidence as possible because i respect my time a little bit at least.

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