Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

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santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Tue May 09, 2017 1:25 pm

ganegaar wrote:I have now read the pali word used, "paṭivirato hoti" which gets translated as "abstain from" or "restrains", and came accross this different thread regarding the meaning of "aarati virati pativirati"

So, as many others have pointed out, I agree with the view that a Sotapana cannot break any of the five precepts!.
I'm glad you spent time researching and reading sutta references and came up with the proper conclusion. :anjali: Those who actually lend ears are indeed rare. It's a dying breed and as already mentioned, only a matter of time until the Dhamm drum goes completely silent. But hey, knowing it full well, they'll keep doing what they're doing 'til the very end. They owe the Buddha too much for His gift and will never give up.
SN 6.1 wrote:Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he did so, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses — born and growing in the water — might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water — so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.

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ganegaar
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by ganegaar » Wed May 10, 2017 8:10 am

@R1111, I am sorry that the discussion turned a little personal and at times a little sour as well, and the feelings are hurt :(.
How this discussion turned out to be: It is a reminder to all of us, that we have lot more things to achieve, a lot more things to learn, both in our spiritual progress and in our lives, is it not?
R1111 wrote: What it boils down to actually is that the Buddha never proclaimed that it is impossible, there are six things that are truly impossible for a Sotapanna to do according to the Tipitaka. Like it or not that is what has been proclaimed as impossible, that which cannot happen. Everything else by direct implication can happen, it is possible, not impossible. This is basic logic.
He did not say with same words that it is impossible as with the six things, in that you are right. However, the five precepts are used as a benchmark (among other things) to test oneself, to test oneself to have attained the Sotapana state or not, according to the AN 5.179. The choice of words (in pali) to describe the situation is interesting and of utmost importance. (a wonderful comparative translation here >>)
My current understanding about it is:
A sotapana would look at the five precepts from a view point not available for an ordinary person (of being attained such high mental state), so that, the "restrain" is automatic, or rather it is "restrained by way of reasoning". It is restrained because he do not have the first two fretters, sakkhaya dhitti (self view? better not to have translated that word either!) and vicikicci (doubt on the path, doubt on Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha), which automatically leads to a rapid reasoning away from committing anything to break the five precepts.
So for a Sotapana, it is crystal clear that there is no gain (and in fact a loss) in breaking a precept. And a Sotapana dwells in a happiness here and now ( about his understanding of the world and realization of the truth, he rejoices in the qualities of the Buddha Dhamma and Sangha), which implicitly makes it breaking a precept "a paradox"!, there is no happiness or advantage he gains by breaking one.
R1111 wrote:
...Also think about implications of me being right and how many people blocked themselves from heavenly rebirth and path realization just by denouncing Ven. Nanavira. According to the commentary anyways.
Not aware of what Ven. Nanavira said and what all that is about, but about our discussion here with regard to the OP:
Have you considered the implication of us being wrong (in thinking a Sotapana can break 5 precepts)? we might wrongly estimate our progress in the path (if we think a Sotapana can break the 5 precepts), which might be counter productive, and even may be illusive.
But consider the other side, say we accept the view a Sotapana cannot break the 5 precepts, only thing can happen is that we may achieve a higher goal than what we think of what we have achieved!,
compared to the other alternative..., I would rather test myself when I cannot break any of the 5 precepts by way of automatic reasoning!
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Wed May 10, 2017 8:41 am

You are not seeing the danger that i am pointing out,
I will extrapolate let me know if it makes more sense;
Person A announces an attainment of Stream Entry goes on to break a precept
Person B says "Person A is certainly not Ariya because he broke the precept, he has no Attainment and claimed wrongly"
Person C doesnt even know about the claim of Ariyahood but merely says "Person A is certainly not Ariya for a Sotapanna would never break the five precepts"
If person A is indeed Ariya at this point then both C and B have reviled a Noble One with "worst accusations and denial of his special qualities".
This is one of the worst offenses and blocks heavenly rebirth and path realization, rendering both unable to go to heavens after death and unable to realize higher paths. Even a Sotapanna can occur this offense and wont be able to attain second path.

As i see it the risk is enormous, a smart person would not even take it at a billion to one odds imo. Not even close.

Furthermore a person prone to delusion might just as easily delude himself thinking : i dont break five precepts, i must be a sotapanna and become complacent.

A sotapanna looks at precepts diffrently it is not wise to assume that a ordinary person would know how he looks at them for that knowledge is unavailable to him and the gap cannot be estimated. It is like trying to know what is unknown, one cant know that is the nature of it. If one could know then one would be Ariya himself.
It is not wise to make these conclusions.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by SarathW » Wed May 10, 2017 9:08 am

There is an assurance that the Sotapanna will never be born in an animal womb.
Has the Sotapanna got the special privilege that s/she can break the five precepts but will never be born in the animal womb?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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ganegaar
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by ganegaar » Wed May 10, 2017 9:15 am

R1111 wrote:...
If person A is indeed Ariya at this point then both C and B have reviled a Noble One with "worst accusations and denial of his special qualities".
This is one of the worst offenses and blocks heavenly rebirth and path realization, rendering both unable to go to heavens after death and unable to realize higher paths. Even a Sotapanna can occur this offense and wont be able to attain second path.
This is something that I was not aware of :(, that one might get so much a bad consequences for mistakenly doubting a noble one. Yet, for all this to happen:
A has to be a Sotapana, as well as has to declare himself, and then commit the offense and B has to come to know of all of it, and B has to have reviled the noble one as well... These days, Sotapana's are so rare, and Sotapana's in lay people even more so, this sounds a very rare possibility, isn't it?

Yes, you are right, I do not grasp the danger you are pointing at :(, and I see my mind finding excuses to defend my point of view, rather than being open to your view point :(, I have so much room to improve!.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Wed May 10, 2017 10:08 am

ganegaar wrote:...
The offense is commited even if the attainment is not announced.
And i suspect this is tied up with why lay state cant sustain Arahantship as well but this is my speculation.

It doesnt take many Sotapannas for this to happen to many. There are periodically claims of Stream Entry and beyond even on this forum and people are usually quick to scrutinize the person.

I personally fear i may have accured the offense by writing some minor things about Mahasi Sayadaw and i will make ammends by visiting the grave first chance i get, same with Ajahn Mun even tho i know some of what is attributed to him by others is not possible i dont know the man, i wasnt there i didnt hear it from his lips, so i will apologize first chance i get just in case.

As i see it:
Are the Teachers who claim that is impossible for a Sotapanna to break five precepts worthless? Absolutely not!
Can Ariya come to hold wrong view about this? I am inclined to think that it is possible as it has not been proclaimed as impossible.
There is a huge diffrence between lay and monastic state and even some ordinary folk keep some precepts unbroken, i can see how a monastic Sotapanna can be shocked by what a lay Sotapanna might do.

Sotapanna is free from hell states, he recovers quickly from offenses and some things are impossible for him to do.

Kosambiya Sutta is interesting because it details what kind of qualities a Sotapanna is endowed with in 7 superhuman reflections including virtue, discourse is given to monastics, look it up.
Cliffs: Sila of someone endowed with right view explained thus: even tho he may do some evil things, that require disciplinary action, nevertheless he confesses them to the teacher or a wise person.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by binocular » Wed May 10, 2017 10:23 am

R1111 wrote:You are not seeing the danger that i am pointing out,
I will extrapolate let me know if it makes more sense;
Person A announces an attainment of Stream Entry goes on to break a precept
Person B says "Person A is certainly not Ariya because he broke the precept, he has no Attainment and claimed wrongly"
Person C doesnt even know about the claim of Ariyahood but merely says "Person A is certainly not Ariya for a Sotapanna would never break the five precepts"
If person A is indeed Ariya at this point then both C and B have reviled a Noble One with "worst accusations and denial of his special qualities".
This is one of the worst offenses and blocks heavenly rebirth and path realization, rendering both unable to go to heavens after death and unable to realize higher paths. Even a Sotapanna can occur this offense and wont be able to attain second path.

As i see it the risk is enormous, a smart person would not even take it at a billion to one odds imo. Not even close.

Furthermore a person prone to delusion might just as easily delude himself thinking : i dont break five precepts, i must be a sotapanna and become complacent.

A sotapanna looks at precepts diffrently it is not wise to assume that a ordinary person would know how he looks at them for that knowledge is unavailable to him and the gap cannot be estimated. It is like trying to know what is unknown, one cant know that is the nature of it. If one could know then one would be Ariya himself.
It is not wise to make these conclusions.
I think this teaching needs to be put into context. Otherwise, we end up thinking anything can pass for noble behavior and that anyone could be an ariya. This way, we make the standards of nobility completely arbitrary. Moreover, by assuming that anyone might be an ariya, we also deem ourselves obligated to them, thus making ourselves vulnerable to anyone who might wish to take advantage of us.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Wed May 10, 2017 10:26 am

SarathW wrote:There is an assurance that the Sotapanna will never be born in an animal womb.
Has the Sotapanna got the special privilege that s/she can break the five precepts but will never be born in the animal womb?
As i see it there is no free pass to do evil, he feels pain when he does it and power of conscientiousness is strong in him so he will naturally be inclined to avoid it and end the root of pain. even if is tempted[indulges\misbehaves] and out of ignorace does evil he doesnt hold wrong view and tries to fight the delusion, he regards it as hurting himself and others. He also sees how one thing leads to another and breaks his addictions gradually until he is at second path.

If he neglects meditation and doesnt protect himself his mindfulness is weakened, hindrances are strong and ignorance feeds off the hindrances. This is how he comes to dwell negligently, in pain.
Ref: Nandiya Sutta & AN 10.61 (ignorance)
Last edited by R1111 = rightviewftw on Wed May 10, 2017 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Wed May 10, 2017 11:45 am

binocular wrote: Moreover, by assuming that anyone might be an ariya, we also deem ourselves obligated to them, thus making ourselves vulnerable to anyone who might wish to take advantage of us.
I think we should only feel obligated to tame ourselves. It would be good for us if we try to venerate those who are upright. If Ariya misbehaves and people lose respect for him thats his own fault. It is a very general comment on my part but your statement was quite general as well so fwiw.

Many qualities have been proclaimed for a Sotapanna of which i am 100% sure of, of the top of my head:
Doesnt hide offences as a Bhikkhui
Has strong Dhamma-Piti
Can distinguish what is rightfully spoken
Unshakable confidence
Lends ear to the Dhamma
Six major wrongdoings are impossible
Always keeps his mind on the practice when doing chores for other Bhikkhus.

Im sure there are more, in general one should not assume things about people and if someone proclaims an attainment that is an invitation to be questioned as i see it. When a Bhikkhu declares final gnosis according to the Chabbisodanasuttam he should neither be belived nor not belived but questioned on the Dhamma.
A Sotapanna can be questioned as well but more basic questions i guess, anyway people should be given benefit of the doubt always imho.

Good news is that if one suspects having reviled a noble one one can apologize and recover from it and "be as one was before" in general i think there is a case to be made that changing ones view can be enough sometimes based on the Lion's Roar Sutta.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by ganegaar » Wed May 10, 2017 1:45 pm

R1111 wrote: As i see it there is no free pass to do evil, he feels pain when he does it and power of conscientiousness is strong in him so he will naturally be inclined to avoid it and end the root of pain. even if is tempted[indulges\misbehaves] and out of ignorace does evil he doesnt hold wrong view and tries to fight the delusion, he regards it as hurting himself and others. He also sees how one thing leads to another and breaks his addictions gradually until he is at second path.

If he neglects meditation and doesnt protect himself his mindfulness is weakened, hindrances are strong and ignorance feeds off the hindrances. This is how he comes to dwell negligently, in pain.
Ref: Nandiya Sutta & AN 10.61 (ignorance)
The Nandiya Sutta, I suppose you mean the Nandiyasakka Sutta. Then, in pali, it has the Buddha explicitly declaring such a person as a puthajjana, (that is not a sotapana!)
Translation again has the obvious side effects of a translation (this is not at all a fault of the translation or the translator, just this will happen inevitably anyway) - it is so difficult to convey the meaning without leading to a different interpretation :(.

So, it can be the case, that the confusion here is, between the magga and phala, @R1111 you might be describing the qualities of a person who is on the way to become a Sotapana, but not necessarily a person who has attained the Sotapana state.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by ganegaar » Wed May 10, 2017 1:50 pm

Nandiyasakka sutta is interesting, it raises the bar even higher, it declares not only the factors (such as firm belief on triple gem, etc) but even the mindfulness and a dedicated commitment to practice is also needed to be considered when identifying one as a Sotapana!.
One good analysis here.
Sīlepatiṭṭhāya naro sapañño, cittaṃ paññañca bhāvayaṃ;
Ātāpī nipako bhikkhu, so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti.

santa100
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Wed May 10, 2017 3:00 pm

SarathW wrote:There is an assurance that the Sotapanna will never be born in an animal womb.
Has the Sotapanna got the special privilege that s/she can break the five precepts but will never be born in the animal womb?
Exactly is the point. Breaking the Five Precepts definitely removes the assurrance that the Sotapanna will never be reborn in the lower states as clearly pointed out in AN 8.40
The Sotapanna can break minor precepts but cannot break the Five Precepts as explicitly stated in AN 5.179

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by perkele » Wed May 10, 2017 6:17 pm

ganegaar wrote:
R1111 wrote: If he neglects meditation and doesnt protect himself his mindfulness is weakened, hindrances are strong and ignorance feeds off the hindrances. This is how he comes to dwell negligently, in pain.
Ref: Nandiya Sutta & AN 10.61 (ignorance)
The Nandiya Sutta, I suppose you mean the Nandiyasakka Sutta. Then, in pali, it has the Buddha explicitly declaring such a person as a puthajjana, (that is not a sotapana!)
Translation again has the obvious side effects of a translation (this is not at all a fault of the translation or the translator, just this will happen inevitably anyway) - it is so difficult to convey the meaning without leading to a different interpretation :(.

So, it can be the case, that the confusion here is, between the magga and phala, @R1111 you might be describing the qualities of a person who is on the way to become a Sotapana, but not necessarily a person who has attained the Sotapana state.
This interpretation also seems to make most sense to me. However,there seems to bei little clear information in the suttas about such questions.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by khlawng » Wed May 10, 2017 6:50 pm

SarathW wrote:There is an assurance that the Sotapanna will never be born in an animal womb.
Has the Sotapanna got the special privilege that s/she can break the five precepts but will never be born in the animal womb?
never being born in an animal womb (or lower),
doesn't mean not being born a human in destitute.
the difference being a human has the faculty to listen and practise the dhamma.
he gets seven chances to get it right.
it doesn't mean he gets to do it on a bed of roses.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by santa100 » Wed May 10, 2017 7:54 pm

Notice observing the Five Precepts is only one among the various prerequisites before one can be called a Sotapanna:
AN 10.92 wrote:Householder, when a noble disciple has eliminated five perils and enmities, possesses the four factors of stream-entry, and has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom the noble method, he might, if he so wished, declare of himself: 'I am one finished with hell, the animal realm, and the sphere of afflicted spirits; I am a stream-enterer...

What are the five perils and enmities that have been eliminated? Householder, one who destroyes life,...takes what is not given...engages in sexual misconduct...speaks falsely...indulges in liquor, wine, and intoxicants...
This is as explicit as it gets. I simply can't imagine what else the Buddha could say to make it any more obvious.

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