Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:46 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:40 am
Direct question Doot
Have you found a way to refute me to establish beyond reasonable doubt that i am wrong and it is not a view?
Or do you have anything new to contribute to discussion? As i considered this debate over 1 year ago for lack of opposition. If you want to be opposition you have to make a new thread or familiarize yourself with content here at very least then we can talk.
The content is clear, namely, your personal interpretation of reading the following:
Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.
You appear to be imagining the above quote means to never ever transgress a precepts in the very slightest. But, in reality, it appears the above quote is only referring to sila that leads to concentration (rather than Jainism).

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:47 am

im am asking mods to do their job and remove all off-topic posts and clear up the thread. Also enforce basic rules for discussion. This is not a chat room.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:48 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:42 am
DERAILING MY THREAD
The Lord said:
The eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on eye contact... intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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rightviewftw
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:52 am

Mods can split this thread, clear it up, rename or close it! I am OP and i want a coherent discussion which has been taking place, i would like it to continue in this fashion or close the thread.

If not then do at least rename this thread to reflect it's evolved nature because if this keeps on like this i will be leaving the thread and there is no challenging going on, no debate, no OP, nobody to officially challenge so it is not a fitting title.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:12 am, edited 8 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:55 am

thepea wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:45 am
This individual may have a child who comes in contact with lice, you may have to apply shampoo which kills them, you kill, your sila has been broken.
But the Lonaphala Sutta appears to say this will not break liberation:
'Now, a trifling evil act done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind [i.e., painful feelings cannot invade the mind and stay there], developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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DooDoot
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:11 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 9:08 am
There is an assurance that the Sotapanna will never be born in an animal womb.
Has the Sotapanna got the special privilege that s/she can break the five precepts but will never be born in the animal womb?
Greetings dhammafriend SarathW

I would assume the answer to your thoughtful question is "Yes" because it appears the animal womb as a result of kamma can only arise when there is "self-delusion", as follows:
Bhikkhus, a god, a human or any other good state would not be evident from actions born of greed, hate and delusion. Yet, bhikkhus, from actions born of greed, hate and delusion a hellish being, an animal birth a ghostly birth or some other bad state would be evident.

AN 6.39
When, due to a loss of mindfulness, a stream-enterer breaks a precept, it appears, upon wise reflection (yoniso manasikara), the stream-enterer understands its was the "element of ignorance" that broke the precept rather than "the self" or "me" or "I". But, as stated by many wise & knowledgeable posters on this thread, it would be a trifling action, such as killing an insect or taking some food without asking.


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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by thepea » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:55 am
But the Lonaphala Sutta appears to say this will not break liberation:
What do you mean by break liberation?
I’m not suggesting a sotapanna can regress into states of deprivation, I’m saying they can break precepts which lead to agitating mind to level where they cannot work at the depths for liberstive wisdom to arise and further free them from the subtler bonds.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:37 am

i'm not aware of having posted any commentary; the excerpts from sotāpanna handbook are basically raw suttas. my educated opinion is bare sutta + my own discernment. if thats not sufficient i dont need to be attacked. the five precepts are not the basis of the holy life, and in and of themselves they are empty (the buddha taught this). i'm also not sure if, after reading your replies, you haven't confused me with other people. i am going to bow out of this discussion because i contributed what i thought was a worthy contribution and wish to curb any ill will.
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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:52 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:37 am
i'm not aware of having posted any commentary; the excerpts from sotāpanna handbook are basically raw suttas.
I am sorry about calling it commentary, i just looked at it briefly saw same old Suttas and jumped to conclusion that it is on you to look thru this thread and see if there is anything new.
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:37 am
if thats not sufficient i dont need to be attacked. if thats not sufficient i dont need to be attacked. the five precepts are not the basis of the holy life, and in and of themselves they are empty (the buddha taught this). i'm also not sure if, after reading your replies, you haven't confused me with other people.
I was not sure what was your position and encouraged you to take one if you wanted to debate it. Seemed clear that you were making a point for Panca-Sila being "Virtues fundamental to holy life". When you raised this thread i just continued to Defend ITT, a criticism of my position ITT i have to adress, as i have the burden of proof here but it has to be legitimate. I will obv try to deflect as much illegitimate evidence as possible because i respect my time a little bit at least.

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:11 am

thepea wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:42 am
I’m not suggesting a sotapanna can regress into states of deprivation, I’m saying they can break precepts which lead to agitating mind to level where they cannot work at the depths for liberative wisdom to arise and further free them from the subtler bonds.
Anatta is not like this. A sotapanna is a Noble Person because the mind has comprehended anatta. There are no significant bonds in anatta. A sotapanna can't commit major sins because the mind fears clinging. Kind regards

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Re: Challenging the Sotapanna cannot break the Five Precepts View

Post by thepea » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:11 am
Anatta is not like this. A sotapanna is a Noble Person because the mind has comprehended anatta. There are no significant bonds in anatta. A sotapanna can't commit major sins because the mind fears clinging. Kind regards
A sotapanna has broken the bonds which lead to rebirth in states of deprivation. They are still capable of rebirth in 27 of the remaining states. There is still a very rocky road of self to liberate.
I would not say mind fears clinging, fear leads to hatred, one walking the path of nobility is liberating sankharas through seeing this sankhara is suffering, it is not me, and it does not last forever. This is not a mind of fear in my opinion.

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