Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by SarathW » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:23 am

Who are these Devas responsible for creation?
Are they similar to Abrahmic God who create the world?

=========
the Devas Delighting in Creation are more splendid & more refined than the Contented Devas... the Devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others are more splendid & more refined than the Devas Delighting in Creation...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

form
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by form » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:52 am

Dun think these devas create the world, more like their are part of certain phenomena like clouds, wave, wind, rain etc. Dun sound very scientific does it? :)

plwk
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by plwk » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:23 am

And which part of Buddhism is 'scientific' if I may ask?

form
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by form » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:57 am

plwk wrote:And which part of Buddhism is 'scientific' if I may ask?
The four noble truths and eightfold path.

plwk
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by plwk » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:10 am

Right.. I rest my case. Back to you SarathW :focus:

paul
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by paul » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:37 am

[quote=]And which part of Buddhism is 'scientific' if I may ask?[/quote]

Impermanence is a scientific fact.

form
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by form » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:44 am

Those parts that can be investigated and observed.

Phena
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by Phena » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:10 am

SarathW wrote:Who are these Devas responsible for creation?
Are they similar to Abrahmic God who create the world?

=========
the Devas Delighting in Creation are more splendid & more refined than the Contented Devas... the Devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others are more splendid & more refined than the Devas Delighting in Creation...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
What do you think Sarath, is this statement saying definitively that Devas are responsible for creation? I think there is more than a little ambiguity there. Do you know of any other suttas that says definitely that Devas are responsible for creation?

The second question is more straight forward. The Abrahamic God is omniscient, omnipotent and creator of all, which is evidently different and this is made clear in the Gilana Sutta that you quoted from:
  • "If he should say, 'My mind is raised above the Devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others and is set on the Brahma world,' he should be told, 'Friend, even the Brahma world is inconstant, impermanent, included in self-identity. It would be good if, having raised your mind above the Brahma world, you brought it to the cessation of self-identity.'

paul
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by paul » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:42 am

We can access these realms and they are really thought levels. The devas delighting in creation is the thought level accessed when involved in the artistic process. The devas wielding power over other's creations is the mental level of those that sell or collect the art. Female opera singers are in fact called "divas". These states of mind may be sublime but they are merely mundane as they do not have Nibbana as object.

santa100
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by santa100 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:11 pm

From Ven. Nyanatiloka's ditionary:
Nimmanarati wrote:A class of devas, inhabiting the fifth of the six deva-worlds. (D.i.218; M.i.289, etc.; S.i.133, etc.; A.i.210, etc.
For their life span see Compendium 140f).
They are so called because they delight in their own creations. They can create any form in any colour. NidA.109; RA.234; VibhA.519.
While the highlighted part seems to give much power to them, it's important to notice that being powerful as they are, these devas cannot violate the rule of all rules: kamma, ie making a being suffer if his/her kammic stream did not have the seeds that lead to suffering, etc. It's not an authoritarian/dictatorship kind of system, it's a constitutional monarchy one.

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mikenz66
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:29 pm

Phena wrote: What do you think Sarath, is this statement saying definitively that Devas are responsible for creation? I think there is more than a little ambiguity there. Do you know of any other suttas that says definitely that Devas are responsible for creation?
Surely there can be devas who "create" some things. People create things too: planes, trains, automobiles... We don't have to read "creation" in the sense of Genesis...

:heart:
Mike

form
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by form » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:00 pm

paul wrote:We can access these realms and they are really thought levels. The devas delighting in creation is the thought level accessed when involved in the artistic process. The devas wielding power over other's creations is the mental level of those that sell or collect the art. Female opera singers are in fact called "divas". These states of mind may be sublime but they are merely mundane as they do not have Nibbana as object.
Madonna is a Deva? Her manager is the Deva yielding power over the artist?

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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by form » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:26 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Phena wrote: What do you think Sarath, is this statement saying definitively that Devas are responsible for creation? I think there is more than a little ambiguity there. Do you know of any other suttas that says definitely that Devas are responsible for creation?
Surely there can be devas who "create" some things. People create things too: planes, trains, automobiles... We don't have to read "creation" in the sense of Genesis...

:heart:
Mike
What you have described have very deep implications with the functioning of the mundane world.

davidbrainerd
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by davidbrainerd » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:38 pm

"Delighting in Creation"

Creation, verb or noun in this place in original?

That is what eould determine the meaning. Because "Delighting in Creation" if creation is a verb in the original would be equivalent to "Delighting in Creating".

Of couse, it could be that Pali is as ambiguous here as English, and probably is!

In English "Delighting in Creation" is ambiguous. No way to prove grammatically that creation is not a verb here, or that someone didn't just choose to say "Delighting in Creation" where "Love to create" is more natural. Just because there is a more natural way to say it does not prove the author did not mean it.

justindesilva
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by justindesilva » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:23 am

Devas for creation is only cited in Hinduism.
Greek mythology too express stories about deities who created various phenomena in creation. Clouds rain storms floods are all creations of deities as of Hinduism with Vishnu as the protector of environment.
But buddhism explains that Darma protects the environment conditioned by morality (sila)

With buddhism to my knowledge there is no deity or person involved in creation. If at all creation of worlds or objects is a matter conditioned by our own vingnana.
Speaking about creation by any person is totally against buddhism.
The gatha " kammana vattathi loko kammana vattathi paja" ( vasetta sutta). explains that world and beings are processed by karma.
Hence we need not investigate about deities but let us study well vingnana and it's creations conditioned by karma .
With metta.

justindesilva
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by justindesilva » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:23 am

Devas for creation is only cited in Hinduism.
Greek mythology too express stories about deities who created various phenomena in creation. Clouds rain storms floods are all creations of deities as of Hinduism with Vishnu as the protector of environment.
But buddhism explains that Darma protects the environment conditioned by morality (sila)

With buddhism to my knowledge there is no deity or person involved in creation. If at all creation of worlds or objects is a matter conditioned by our own vingnana.
Speaking about creation by any person is totally against buddhism.
The gatha " kammana vattathi loko kammana vattathi paja" ( vasetta sutta). explains that world and beings are processed by karma.
Hence we need not investigate about deities but let us study well vingnana and it's creations conditioned by karma .
With metta.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:55 am

davidbrainerd wrote:That is what would determine the meaning. Because "Delighting in Creation" if creation is a verb in the original would be equivalent to "Delighting in Creating".
In the case of the Nimmānarati devas, I think "creating", rather than, "creation", would more accurately and unambiguously convey the nimmānaṃ component of Nimmānarati.

On the other hand, there are other contexts where the sense would be better conveyed by "creation", or even adjectivally by "creative". For example, issaranimmānahetu in the Devadaha Sutta:
  • Sace, bhikkhave, sattā issaranimmānahetu sukhadukkhaṃ paṭisaṃvedenti; addhā, bhikkhave, nigaṇṭhā pāpakena issarena nimmitā yaṃ etarahi evarūpā dukkhā tibbā kaṭukā vedanā vediyanti.

    “If, monks, the pleasure and pain which creatures undergo are due to creation by an overlord, certainly, monks, the Jains were created by an evil overlord in that they now experience such painful, severe, sharp feelings.”
    (I.B. Horner)

    If the pleasure and pain that beings feel are caused by the creative act of a Supreme God, then the Nigaṇṭhas surely must have been created by an evil Supreme God, since they now feel such painful, racking, piercing feelings.
    (Bodhi)

    "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on the creative act of a supreme god, then obviously the Niganthas have been created by an evil supreme god, which is why they now feel such fierce, sharp, racking pains.
    (Thanissaro)

form
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by form » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:06 am

Dhammanando wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:That is what would determine the meaning. Because "Delighting in Creation" if creation is a verb in the original would be equivalent to "Delighting in Creating".
In the case of the Nimmānarati devas, I think "creating", rather than, "creation", would more accurately and unambiguously convey the nimmānaṃ component of Nimmānarati.

On the other hand, there are other contexts where the sense would be better conveyed by "creation", or even adjectivally by "creative". For example, issaranimmānahetu in the Devadaha Sutta:
  • Sace, bhikkhave, sattā issaranimmānahetu sukhadukkhaṃ paṭisaṃvedenti; addhā, bhikkhave, nigaṇṭhā pāpakena issarena nimmitā yaṃ etarahi evarūpā dukkhā tibbā kaṭukā vedanā vediyanti.

    “If, monks, the pleasure and pain which creatures undergo are due to creation by an overlord, certainly, monks, the Jains were created by an evil overlord in that they now experience such painful, severe, sharp feelings.”
    (I.B. Horner)

    If the pleasure and pain that beings feel are caused by the creative act of a Supreme God, then the Nigaṇṭhas surely must have been created by an evil Supreme God, since they now feel such painful, racking, piercing feelings.
    (Bodhi)

    "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on the creative act of a supreme god, then obviously the Niganthas have been created by an evil supreme god, which is why they now feel such fierce, sharp, racking pains.
    (Thanissaro)
These quotes have convincingly point out that individual cannot be created by a single supreme god. The Buddha also mentioned such self torturing individuals must have committed much physical harm to others in their past life.

In the dog ascetic sutta, the Buddha also mentioned if one copied the habits of a dog very well, he may be born among the dogs in subsequent live.

What about those hell attendants mentioned in the nikayas that came and fetched a freshly dead? What realm are they? Or is this some incorporation of folklores into the sutta?

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Dhammanando
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:38 pm

form wrote:What about those hell attendants mentioned in the nikayas that came and fetched a freshly dead? What realm are they?
Petas. Or more precisely, they're vemānikapetas: ghosts experiencing the vipāka of mixed dark and light kamma, who get to spend half of their time living like a deva in their own celestial mansion, and the other half experiencing the privations of a preta.

form
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Re: Who are these Devas responsible for creation?

Post by form » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:15 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
form wrote:What about those hell attendants mentioned in the nikayas that came and fetched a freshly dead? What realm are they?
Petas. Or more precisely, they're vemānikapetas: ghosts experiencing the vipāka of mixed dark and light kamma, who get to spend half of their time living like a deva in their own celestial mansion, and the other half experiencing the privations of a preta.
Thanks for the clear explanation.

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