Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explained) -

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Twilight
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by Twilight »

Whatever opinions there are, they are opinions about hindu/abhidhama/vissudhimagga etc. jhanas. Sutta jhanas are described very clear over here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html

Apanasanti 16 step meditation:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

These over here are the sutta-jhanas taught by the historical Buddha in the Pali Canon. I am not the one who wrote those suttas. And those suttas are very clear. Throughout the canon, jhana is always always always described as "rapture born out of seclusion" (1st jhana) witch corresponds perfectly with the guidelines in those 3 suttas above. Those are the jhanas listed as the 8th step of the noble eithfold path.

If there are some who claim they have found a shortcut and can develop equally or even better jhanas than those, then they are not speaking about the 8th step of the noble eighfold path as taught by the Buddha. Their methods are not based on the anapanasati sutta, the meditation method Buddha rediscovered as a child. And their jhanas are not the same as are the jhanas Buddha spoke about in the suttas posted above.

I have no idea how beneficial these modern jhanas that have not been taught by the Buddha are. But one thing is for sure: If there really was a shortcut to the noble 8thfold path, then Buddha would have certainly taught us that shortcut out of compassion. Instead, he taught us the noble 8thfold path. One should not be surprised to not achieve non-returner or arahanthip by attaining such modern jhanas not taught by the Buddha. Or they may achieve non-returner or arahanthip but not the kind of non-returner and arahanthip that Buddha spoke about...

People laugh about Bhikkhu Bhodi not achieving any jhana. They think he is "not advanced" for not achieving any jhana. But B.Bhodi is speaking about sutta-jhanas taught by the historical Buddha witch take decades to achieve, not about other jhanas. According to the Pali Canon, if one achieves such sutta jhanas and observes how even this state is constructed and dependently arisen, he will achieve non-returner or arahanthip on the spot - depending on weather he has any form of clinging for this new knowledge discovered. So it is quite a thing to become a non-returner and nobody should be laughed at for not been one. I have no idea how many such people exist in the world. And they are certainly living secluded, not known by anybody. It is difficult to achieve such a state while been a famous bhikkhu constantly engaged in the world.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by mikenz66 »

Twilight wrote:Whatever opinions there are, they are opinions about hindu/abhidhama/vissudhimagga etc. jhanas. Sutta jhanas are described very clear over here:
And there are many opinions about them, too. Some modern teachers interpret them as rather "light", some as absorbed as those described in the Visuddhimagga. It all depends on how you read some of the terms in the suttas.

See, for example, these discussions:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ca ... jhana/3819
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/vi ... ctors/2589

Plenty to read there...
Twilight wrote: People laugh about Bhikkhu Bhodi not achieving any jhana. They think he is "not advanced" for not achieving any jhana. But B.Bhodi is speaking about sutta-jhanas taught by the historical Buddha witch take decades to achieve, not about other jhanas.
Actually, the teachers who have the view that the "sutta jhanas" are much lighter than the "visuddhimagga jhanas" also think they are much easier to achieve.

You might find this summary helpful:
Interpretations of the Jhanas http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm

:reading:
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by User156079 »

Rapture born out of seclusions is Rapture. Rapture is Rapture (Piti, Factor of Awakening), Jhana is Jhana. You are free to seclude yourself and wait for Jhana to be born out of Seclusion. If you start meditating you will see that there arent many ways to go about it.
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by Twilight »

mikenz66 wrote: Actually, the teachers who have the view that the "sutta jhanas" are much lighter than the "visuddhimagga jhanas" also think they are much easier to achieve.
I am familiar with those "jhana heavy vs jhana light" debates and that those who fight in those debates actually make a case for sutta jhanas to be light :juggling: All I can tell those people, with my usual arrogance, is to go and read the Pali Canon. At first when I started reading, every 3 days I came up with a new method for doing jhana and never agreed with B.Bhodi or other sutta-readers about how jhana is done. I taught he might be a conservative traditionalist, I taught that he didn't understand the canon, etc. After a couple of months, after further thinking and after reading the passages describing how the path should be practiced, I arrived at the same conclusions. This is simply how things go in the canon. If they would not be like that, we would all be non-returners. It is easy to misunderstand how things are done regarding jhana just like I myself came with such an explanation every 3 days for a couple of months. It is so easy to confuse interesting meditation experiences with jhana. If one wants to delude himself that he achieved some kind of jhana, he will always be able to twist a passage and make a case for him achieving jhana and then cling to this idea.

I would like to point out another very important thing: The mahasi technique is taken out of context of the noble 8thfold path.

As we can see in those suttas, wakefulness can only be done after restraint of the senses. Why is this so ? Because for example if one has attachment to drinking, smoking pot, reading politics, engaging too much in debates on the forum, eating too much, daydreaming etc. doing all sort of things. And not to mention the good old "attachment to thyself" build through constantly giving attention to thoughts such as "I am advanced because if this and that" and then developing narratives about himself. If one has these big attachments, his mind will drag him towards this and no matter how much effort he will make to stay wakefull, he will not do it. The attachment is too strong. His mind will drag him towards thinking such thoughts or engaging in such activities. First one has to do restraint of the senses by eliminating big attachments and then eliminate small attachments.

The mind always has the tendency to take pleasure. The mind constantly is looking for thoughts to think that bring pleasure. (and most are thoughts about thyself like "I am advanced" or "I am a nice person" - that bring a lot of pleasure) The mind always tries to drag the person into activities that bring pleasure. The whole idea of the path is to destroy this tendency towards taking delight of the mind. After doing the restraint of the senses step, then wakefulness only comes to help this restraint of the senses part. In order to further destroy this constant tendency of the mind towards taking delight (in thoughts, etc.) - one has to be wakefull so he can stop this tendency that happens every second.
If one tries to develop wakefulness while still having big attachments (reading politics, smoking pot, thinking about himself etc) that will simpy not work no matter how much efort he puts into wakefulness. His mind will still drag him in that direction no matter how hard he tries. This is why wakefulness only comes into the picture after restraint of the senses step. And it's goal is to help this restraint of the senses, to help further destroy this tendency towards taking delight. People will probably misunderstand this lack of success to mean they are not doing mindfulness correctly or that they are not putting enough effort. While they are simply doing it out of context:
https://suttacentral.net/mn39

This is why it's probably impossible in these days to achieve jhana as a layman. If there are people who have achieved jhana and became non-returners, I guarantee they are living very secluded and nobody knows about them. Monks from the same monastery probably know nothing about them. Ideas like been a non-returner while living the same engaged life as you did before are very wishful thinking. There is a reason why Buddha always encouraged people to become monks.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by User156079 »

There is no doubt about how Jhanas are achieved. The only debate is between people who dont achieve them, they dont achieve them because they dont practise, dont practise enough or practise in a wrong way, usually the first two. They are preoccupied with developing views based on their intellectual understanding of a practical teaching.
Last edited by User156079 on Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by Coëmgenu »

Twilight wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: Actually, the teachers who have the view that the "sutta jhanas" are much lighter than the "visuddhimagga jhanas" also think they are much easier to achieve.
I am familiar with those "jhana heavy vs jhana light" debates and that those who fight in those debates actually make a case for sutta jhanas to be light :juggling: All I can tell those people, with my usual arrogance, is to go and read the Pali Canon. At first when I started reading, every 3 days I came up with a new method for doing jhana and never agreed with B.Bhodi or other sutta-readers about how jhana is done. I taught he might be a conservative traditionalist, I taught that he didn't understand the canon, etc. After a couple of months, after further thinking and after reading the passages describing how the path should be practiced, I arrived at the same conclusions. This is simply how things go in the canon. If they would not be like that, we would all be non-returners. It is easy to misunderstand how things are done regarding jhana just like I myself came with such an explanation every 3 days for a couple of months. It is so easy to confuse interesting meditation experiences with jhana. If one wants to delude himself that he achieved some kind of jhana, he will always be able to twist a passage and make a case for him achieving jhana and then cling to this idea.

I would like to point out another very important thing: The mahasi technique is taken out of context of the noble 8thfold path.

As we can see in those suttas, wakefulness can only be done after restraint of the senses. Why is this so ? Because for example if one has attachment to drinking, smoking pot, reading politics, engaging too much in debates on the forum, eating too much, daydreaming etc. doing all sort of things. And not to mention the good old "attachment to thyself" build through constantly giving attention to thoughts such as "I am advanced because if this and that" and then developing narratives about himself. If one has these big attachments, his mind will drag him towards this and no matter how much effort he will make to stay wakefull, he will not do it. The attachment is too strong. His mind will drag him towards thinking such thoughts or engaging in such activities. First one has to do restraint of the senses by eliminating big attachments and then eliminate small attachments.

The mind always has the tendency to take pleasure. The mind constantly is looking for thoughts to think that bring pleasure. (and most are thoughts about thyself like "I am advanced" or "I am a nice person" - that bring a lot of pleasure) The mind always tries to drag the person into activities that bring pleasure. The whole idea of the path is to destroy this tendency towards taking delight of the mind. After doing the restraint of the senses step, then wakefulness only comes to help this restraint of the senses part. In order to further destroy this constant tendency of the mind towards taking delight (in thoughts, etc.) - one has to be wakefull so he can stop this tendency that happens every second.
If one tries to develop wakefulness while still having big attachments (reading politics, smoking pot, thinking about himself etc) that will simpy not work no matter how much efort he puts into wakefulness. His mind will still drag him in that direction no matter how hard he tries. This is why wakefulness only comes into the picture after restraint of the senses step. And it's goal is to help this restraint of the senses, to help further destroy this tendency towards taking delight.
https://suttacentral.net/mn39

This is why it's probably impossible in these days to achieve jhana as a layman. If there are people who have achieved jhana and became non-returners, I guarantee they are living very secluded and nobody knows about them. Monks from the same monastery probably know nothing about them. Ideas like been a non-returner while living the same engaged life as you did before are very wishful thinking. There is a reason why Buddha always encouraged people to become monks.
The debate seems to have evolved into a "Neo-Sautrántika" vs "Theraváda" debate. This is the downside of relying exclusively on one's own interpretation of the Sutta Pitaka and ignores the oral tradition and the traditions of interpretation of the tipitaka preserved in the "School of Elders" (ie Theraváda) in favour of novel interpretation of the ancient Buddhavacana that only take 1 or 2 of the baskets as source material. Of course you are free to be a "neo-Sautrántika"/"sutta-alone-ist", but at this point you arearguing with the larger Theraváda tradition, not just a few practices you deem as out-of-line with the Sutta Pitaka.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by User156079 »

I feel i have explained the whole path to you Twilight, all of it short of Sila. I dont really have much else to add.
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by Twilight »

Coëmgenu wrote:The debate seems to have evolved into a "Neo-Sautrántika" vs "Theraváda" debate. This is the downside of relying exclusively on one's own interpretation of the Sutta Pitaka and ignores the oral tradition and the traditions of interpretation of the tipitaka preserved in the "School of Elders" (ie Theraváda) in favour of novel interpretation of the ancient Buddhavacana that only take 1 or 2 of the baskets as source material. Of course you are free to be a "neo-Sautrántika"/"sutta-alone-ist", but at this point you arearguing with the larger Theraváda tradition, not just a few practices you deem as out-of-line with the Sutta Pitaka.
I suggest you do a little exercise. For one moment in your life, just stop thinking in terms of traditions and witch tradition is better etc. For one moment, stop thinking about what one guy or another says about the suttas. Just stop for one moment thinking in terms of traditions. Buddha himself said "not to go by reports or traditions." For one single moment in your life, just read these 3 suttas for yourself and decide, using your own brain, not the brain of another, what is written in them:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html

Your head is not there just to have a place where to keep your hat on. Trust your own brain. You look decently smart to me. You have a brain just like everybody else has a brain. There is no need for others to tell you what to think. You can use your own brain to think for yourself. Have trust in your brain. Try this little exercise that I've proposed and, if you like how it went, then use this same method (of using your own brain) in the future to understand suttas. :anjali:
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by User156079 »

We should use the brains of another, associating with good people can make or break the meditator. Even the Bodhisatta had teachers.
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by Twilight »

User156079 wrote:We should use the brains of another, associating with good people can make or break the meditator. Even the Bodhisatta had teachers.
Then why not use the brain of the Buddha ? Is your teacher smarter than the Buddha ? Why not have Buddha as your teacher ?
Last edited by Twilight on Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link
User156079
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by User156079 »

Twilight wrote:
User156079 wrote:We should use the brains of another, associating with good people can make or break the meditator. Even the Bodhisatta had teachers.
Then why not use the brain of the Buddha ? Is your teacher smarter than the Buddha ?
Use his first and foremost ofc. The Dhamma is not hard to discern, it is like no other teaching, it makes sense in the beginning, the middle and the end. One feels joy when listening to true Dhamma. Ungrounded skepticism is a flaw in a practitioner, in a way that its hurting his developement and is a hindrance.

Buddha is my teacher, he is more than that, he is our Father in the Dhamma. Sangha in this way is our relatives in the Dhamma.
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by Coëmgenu »

Twilight wrote:
User156079 wrote:We should use the brains of another, associating with good people can make or break the meditator. Even the Bodhisatta had teachers.
Then why not use the brain of the Buddha ? Is your teacher smarter than the Buddha ? Why not have Buddha as your teacher ?
You mean the brain of you. We are all working with the same Buddhavacana, you don't have a monopoly on personal interpretation. Don't try to pass off your own interpretation as being objectively what the Buddha said.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by Twilight »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Twilight wrote: Then why not use the brain of the Buddha ? Is your teacher smarter than the Buddha ? Why not have Buddha as your teacher ?
You mean the brain of you. We are all working with the same Buddhavacana, you don't have a monopoly on personal interpretation. Don't try to pass off your own interpretation as being objectively what the Buddha said.
Nope. I say you not believe a single word of what I said. I repeat, do not believe a single word of what I said. Here are the suttas again:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html

You read them and make up your mind by yourself. I am not your guru. You have a brain too and can come up with opinions by yourself.
If you come up with another understanding of those suttas than feel free to explain it and debate it. Stop attacking me all the time that I'm not traditionalist enough.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by mikenz66 »

Twilight wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: Actually, the teachers who have the view that the "sutta jhanas" are much lighter than the "visuddhimagga jhanas" also think they are much easier to achieve.
I am familiar with those "jhana heavy vs jhana light" debates and that those who fight in those debates actually make a case for sutta jhanas to be light :juggling:
Clearly you didn't read my links to the sutta central debate, or take on board that various people, Vens Brahm, Analayo, Sujato, favour the "heavy" version. It would have been interesting to hear what you made of their arguments, and, in particular the arguments of Sylvester, who has posted here and on on sutta central extensively on this topic.

Since you appear to have no interest in engaging in a conversation, I will, in future attempt to waste my time as little as possible by restricting myself to pointing out the obvious factual flaws in your statements.

:coffee:
Mike
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Re: Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explaine

Post by Coëmgenu »

Twilight wrote:I suggest you do a little exercise. For one moment in your life, just stop thinking in terms of traditions and witch tradition is better etc. For one moment, stop thinking about what one guy or another says about the suttas. Just stop for one moment thinking in terms of traditions. Buddha himself said "not to go by reports or traditions." For one single moment in your life, just read these 3 suttas for yourself and decide, using your own brain, not the brain of another, what is written in them:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html

Your head is not there just to have a place where to keep your hat on. Trust your own brain. You look decently smart to me. You have a brain just like everybody else has a brain. There is no need for others to tell you what to think. You can use your own brain to think for yourself. Have trust in your brain. Try this little exercise that I've proposed and, if you like how it went, then use this same method (of using your own brain) in the future to understand suttas. :anjali:
This is all projection. I have read the suttas in question. The rest of the people you are arguing with have read the suttas in question. This is just you trying to spin your own Sautrāntika interpretation of these texts as an "objective" reading.

You can't escape interpretation, and you can't escape tradition. When we think we are above interpretation and tradition, that is when we are at our most blind. Buddhism is a tradition. Theravāda is a tradition. These very suttas are the product of tradition. Even your Sautrāntika approach to Buddhadharma is a tradition.

Just because someone knows the names of a number of traditions, knows what they taught, knows their discourses, that doesn't mean they think only in terms of those traditions. It just means they know what they are talking about when they discuss Buddhist history, the history of the very texts we are talking about, and the history of the interpretations those texts have produced, which are by nature manifold.

I thank you for your left-handed complement, but just because I am educated does not mean I follow empty traditions just because they are "traditions". There is a lot of secularized post-Protestant rhetoric in your speech and your choice hermeneutics. I'll take it as that being what is causing you to just assuming, groundlessly, that other people don't read suttas, and that other people haven't read suttas.

After all, from your hermeneutic lens, there is an easily gleanable surface-layer of meaning to the suttas that is objectively true and that is easily penetrable without a great deal of context or study of non-sutta materials. With such a hermeneutic, since it assumes the Dhamma to be open and accessible to the worldling upon mere reading of suttas, of course you think that other people simply "haven't read" these suttas, or are blinded by some sort of "fetter of traditions", because the fact that people disagree with you, and have read the suttas in question, conflicts with your hermeneutic, which claims your interpretations to be part of this objective, self-evident, and obvious "true reading" of the sutta text. Well the Dhamma isn't easy. The Dhamma isn't straightforward, and the Dhamma isn't accessible to the worldling through the mere reading of suttas.
"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me."
(SN 6.1, Brah­māyā­cana­sutta)

The Dhamma cannot be penetrated after a surface-level, or even an in-depth level, of perusal of the suttas, especially if it is not accompanied by solid Buddhadhammabhāvanā from a reliable source, which would include both the preserved Buddha's material discourses and the oral tradition that did not make it into fancy Pāli text as soon as the sutta, vinaya, and abhidhamma did.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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