Mahashi [and other Satipatthana/Samadhi development methods] vs sutta [and contemplating higher teachings] (explained) -

[Twilight]

Title edited to reflect that the discussion has progressed to how stream entry is attained.

The discussion seems to have moved on to whether satipatthana and development of samadhi is required for stream entry, or only listening/reading discourses.

I have therefore modified the title, since the argument appears to be not with Mahasi, but with any approach that involves development of sati and samadhi.


Mike

It would be good to split all these discussions in another topic about "How is stream entry achieved. Samadhi vs contemplation". Maybe even include a poll. And only leave the first page of the topic over here. In this way more people could engage in this stream entry debate witch I consider is incredibly important. Few people are aware of how this is done in the suttas.

Wouldve been nice if OP was right tho, imagine just reading Suttas and becoming Ariya, we wouldve had alot more Stream Winners.

That would be correct if people would read and strongly contemplate them. But not even monks in buddhist countries do it : http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... nk#p359500

[User156079]

I have already explained that "the arising of dhamma eye" means stream entry. Stream entry does mean understanding of nibbana but this is because of understanding the aggregates, sense bases, elements, impermanence, etc.

You do realize that this doesnt mean anything and if we had to work with these quality of interpretations there would be no point?
You have to define time, space, consciousness, the workings of the mind, perception and senses, break experience down to momentary experiences and describe in detail how Stream Entry occurs, that would mean something and be something to work with and build a practise around.

You have to define it in a verifiable manner aswell and it has to work. Theravada has survived so long because it works.

[SDC]

It would be good to split all these discussions in another topic about "How is stream entry achieved. Samadhi vs contemplation". Maybe even include a poll. And only leave the first page of the topic over here. In this way more people could engage in this stream entry debate witch I consider is incredibly important. Few people are aware of how this is done in the suttas.

The blogishness of this whole thread has me tending to keep it one place for now.

[Twilight]

I have already explained that "the arising of dhamma eye" means stream entry. Stream entry does mean understanding of nibbana but this is because of understanding the aggregates, sense bases, elements, impermanence, etc.

You do realize that this doesnt mean anything and if we had to work with these quality of interpretations there would be no point?
You have to define time, space, consciousness, the workings of the mind, perception and senses, break experience down to momentary experiences and describe in detail how Stream Entry occurs, that would mean something and be something to work with and build a practise around.

Think about reading and contemplating a mechanical book. You contemplate it until you get it. When you get it, you get it. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

The blogishness of this whole thread has me tending to keep it one place for now.

What makes you think it is blogish ? It is a simple discussion between 5 users about how stream entry is achieved. Normally when a thread goes in another direction, it is split into another thread instead of changing the title to suit both the 2 topics discussed. It's the first time I see this method been used and I think the old one was better.

[User156079]

Ok so this is the end of the discussion as OP doesnt have a good explaination for what Dhamma Eye is or how Stream Entry occurs.
According to him It just happens u know, u listen or contemplate and then u get it, Stream Entry is like understanding a book you know. Nothing special really happens. Real work begins once u realize that u are enlightened after reading enough Suttas, thats when u start practising Samatha Jhanas to attain Arahantship with abit of daily mindfulness.

Case closed imo.

[Twilight]

If it's not the method you expected, sorry for you. Indeed, case closed.

[User156079]

I sincerely hope you attain all the Samatha Jhanas friend, i wish you good luck!

[Bakmoon]

Because all of the monks in the suttas were already stream enterers.

Can you give any evidence to back up this claim?

They were already instructed about the fundamental doctrine and had already became stream enterers, achieving the first step of the noble 8thfold path - right view. From this point on, the hard path really begins. Steps 2 to 8 are infinitely more difficult than step 1 witch just requires a longer or shorter period of contemplation, depending on the person. By practicing the noble 8thfold path, one will attain arahantship. I repeat, stream entry is just the first step of the noble eithfold path.

This is completely false. Right view alone is not sufficient for stream entry. For example:

SN 45.13
At Sāvatthı̄. Then a certain bhikkhu approached the
Blessed One…. Sitting to one side, that bhikkhu said to
the Blessed One:


“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘a trainee, a trainee.’ In what
way is one a trainee?”

“Here, bhikkhu, one possesses a trainee’s right view
... a trainee’s right concentration. It is in this way that one
is a trainee.”

A Sekha (trainee) is defined as anyone who is a stream enterer or higher, but not an Arahant. A stream enterer must have some development of the path as a whole, not just right view.

[User156079]

A stream enterer must have some development of the path as a whole, not just right view.

OP holds the view that Stream Entry is Right View (orthodox understanding), therefor Stream Entry = the (quote :first step") of A 8 Fold Noble Path leading to Arahantship.

[Bakmoon]

...

Here's an even more explicit sutta which contradicts your interpretation.

SN 55.5
“Sāriputta, this is said: ‘A stream-enterer, a stream-
enterer.’ What now, Sāriputta, is a stream-enterer?”

“One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path,
venerable sir, is called a stream-enterer: this venerable
one of such a name and clan.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! One who possesses this
Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable
one of such a name and clan.”

This text explicitly defines a stream-enterer as one who possesses the entire eight-fold path.

[SDC]

The blogishness of this whole thread has me tending to keep it one place for now.

What makes you think it is blogish ? It is a simple discussion between 5 users about how stream entry is achieved. Normally when a thread goes in another direction, it is split into another thread instead of changing the title to suit both the 2 topics discussed. It's the first time I see this method been used and I think the old one was better.

Alignment with the Dhamma aside, the one underlying theme of this thread has been the presentation of your views, and for now, considering that it does only have a few participants, I think it should all stay in one place.

[Mkoll]

Also the first stages of Mahasi technique as with any other solid approach to establishing mindfulness on the four foundations of mindfulness can lead to Stream Entry and this is how people did it in the suttas, not by listening to the discourse, ultimate reality doesnt admit of things listening, that is a complete misunderstanding of the process.

Absolutely everybody from A to Z in the suttas did it through hearing and contemplating a discourse on dependent origination. Please provide one single sutta reference where somebody did it in another way than through listening and contemplating a discourse. Just one single one, not two.

PS: This is the problem with having strong opinions about books one has not read. You can find yourself in situations such as this.

Satipatthana Sutta:
"This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the four foundations of mindfulness."

If you dont think this is exactly what is being talked about please explain how you understand this quote. This puts the Burden evidence on you.

Its up to you to provide evidence or any referance where Buddha proclaims that listening to discourse is the way to Stream Entry, just one go ahead. But you wont find it and i am sorry if that will cause you grief, because afaik it doesnt exist. Nowhere does it say that "A monk goes to a secluded place and starts to contemplate, as contemplation is established he becomes a Stream Winner" or "Contemplating Dependant Origination monks, that is the only way to full unbinding" or "... Thus i say Monks, Listening a Discourse/Contemplating is one of two ways for beings to be liberated". No indeed, establishing Sati on The Satipatthanas has been proclaimed to be the only way to Stream Entry.?

Not quite. The other 7 factors of the Path are necessary as well.

Also, the translation "only way" of "ekayano maggo" can be misleading. There are different nuances in interpreting ekayano, according to the commentary. See Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana book pp. 27-29 for a thorough discussion of the term; he translates it as "direct path" which I think is better.

~~~

A stream enterer must have some development of the path as a whole, not just right view.

OP holds the view that Stream Entry is Right View, thus the (quote :first step") of A 8 Fold "Noble" Path as in being a Path factor of a Path leading to Arahantship.

That's what I'm seeing as well.

Is that so, Twilight? And if so, what is your response to the sutta Bakmoon just posted?

[Twilight]

Is that so, Twilight? And if so, what is your response to the sutta Bakmoon just posted?

A stream enterer is one who has entered the stream. And that stream is the noble 8fold path. It is in this way that he poseses the noble eightfold path. As for the other, a trainee is practicing the noble 8fold path, nothing new under the sun. There are hundreds of other suttas about what a steam enterer means. It means been consumate in view. Every person in the canon who did it, did it after contemplating a discourse, no matter how advanced or unadvanced he was in terms of practice. Even a sadistic serial criminal did it after just a couple of days of instruction. There were stream enterers who wanted to quit monkhood for a girl. I think there was even a person bordeline mentally challenged who did it but I am not sure if he really did achieve stream entry. Buddha did his best to stress that anyone can do it, even that mentally challenged person, even that serial killer. All it took was listening to the right dhamma and proper attention. Buddha could not stress this more.

If you want to interpret that sutta as implying the stream enterer poseses all the 8 steps of the noble 8fold path, then you have a big problem. It contradicts basically the whole pali canon. And this also implies a stream enterer does have jhana.

Not quite. The other 7 factors of the Path are necessary as well.

Are you claiming jhana is required to reach stream entry ?

[aflatun]

Coming at this from a slightly different angle, perhaps you all could clarify something

Can one have Right View without Stream Entry? Isn't there a distinction in the texts between mundane and supra mundane Right View? The first question perhaps cuts to the heart of the debate here, so maybe this isn't a different angle

As an aside I find it hard to believe (but would love it if it were true!) that any amount of understanding could destroy the first three fetters, which seem to have a great deal to do with behavioral, affective, and 'unconscious' factors which are far more tenacious (to my mind) than anything that a conceptual understanding could even begin to dispel. I would love it if I could think my way to the first stage of enlightenment but I consider this a pipe dream.

[Twilight]

I have answered many question. It is my time to ask a question. How did that sadistic serial criminal achieve stream entry after just a couple of days of instruction ? To say nothing about the million other normal people who achieved it in the same way. Basically everybody in the pali canon achieved it like this. There is not a single sutta reference about somebody doing it in another way.