Collective Consciousness

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Pondera
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Collective Consciousness

Post by Pondera »

Is collective consciousness implied by the mark of anatta?

Does "Infinite Consciousness" imply that consciousness is collective?

Thanks,

Pondéra
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rolling_boulder
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by rolling_boulder »

Pondera wrote:Is collective consciousness implied by the mark of anatta?
IMO, no.
I can't see how "All fabrications are not self" could imply "collective consciousness." Perhaps you could further define "collective consciousness" to clarify your question.
Pondera wrote: Does "Infinite Consciousness" imply that consciousness is collective?
It might.

Find out for yourself!

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Monkey Gift of Honey
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by Monkey Gift of Honey »

The Buddha does not teach a "collective consciousness".

There are six. Eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness, mind consciousness. There is no enduring consciousness. All aggregates are temporary and subject to decay.
As a mother watches over her child, willing to risk her own life to protect her only child, so with a boundless heart should one cherish all living beings, suffusing the whole world with unobstructed loving kindness. Standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all of one's waking hours, one should sustain this heart and this way of living.
- Karaniya Metta Sutta
justindesilva
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by justindesilva »

Collective consciousness today is mostly a term used to explain the collective behaviour of animals. They take decisions collectively and walk eat and go for water collectively. Scientists claim that it happens by the action of electro magnetic waves which acts on animals. The birds flying collectively to a distant destination too is also a collective conscious activity.
Now again similarly the sad moods of the crowds at a funeral and the antagonistic feelings at a violent incident are all collective consciousness.
As such it is possible to spread maithri emotions with collective consciousness as done with Bodhi puja and with paritta desana by a team of sangha to relieve suffering from sicknesses and droughts etc.
May I suggest that this is a result of anatta form of beings when we can collectively control suffering of others by maithri bhavana.
This is a subject not undertaken by many but is studied at academic level also.
As of a sutra , Ratana Sutra is an example of the lower realm beings being controlled collectively by spreading maithri towards them.
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Pondera
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by Pondera »

Monkey Gift of Honey wrote:The Buddha does not teach a "collective consciousness".

There are six. Eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness, mind consciousness. There is no enduring consciousness. All aggregates are temporary and subject to decay.
Did the Buddha teach that it was possible for one consciousness to know another?
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Zom
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by Zom »

Did the Buddha teach that it was possible for one consciousness to know another?
Yes, this is an interesting thing, by the way. As well as "sphere of infinite consciousness". Buddha never spoke that there is a such thing as "collective consciousness", but this does not mean there is none and cannot be one. One of the interesting passages here is from MN 120.

Now the Brahma of a Thousand abides resolved on pervading a world-system of a thousand worlds,
and he abides resolved on pervading the beings that have reappeared there.


Sometimes consciousness element is listed in one row with space element, which is also intriguing. It may be the case that, universally, there is such thing as a impersonal field of mentality which itself does not cognize anything, but some part of it, being dragged into particular place in space-time, conjoined with other mental components (known as "nama") becomes something which is known as "[individual] consciousness" and this mental construction has a function to cognize. When a meditator enters jhana, he can expand his "individual consciousness" (see MN 127), pervading all other individual consciousnesses of this global mentality field (like Brahma in MN 120), up to the level of cognizing this field alone, thus knowing "consciousness is infinite". And when he reaches nibbana, his individual consciousness ceases, "returning" to the global mentality field, just like a wave fades out in the ocean.

There is an interesting sutta as well on this account - AN 8.19:

“Just as, whatever streams in the world flow into the great
ocean and however much rain falls into it from the sky, neither
a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the great ocean, so
too, even if many bhikkhus attain final nibbāna by way of the
nibbāna element without residue remaining, neither a decrease
nor a filling up can be seen in the nibbāna element. This
is the fifth astounding and amazing quality that the bhikkhus
see in this Dhamma and discipline. . . .
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Monkey Gift of Honey
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by Monkey Gift of Honey »

Pondera,
Did the Buddha teach that it was possible for one consciousness to know another?
I am not sure what you mean by "know another". Each consciousness is impermanent and deteriorates. The important thing is that we do not grasp and take eye-consciousness as a self, or mind-consciousness as a self, and so on.
As a mother watches over her child, willing to risk her own life to protect her only child, so with a boundless heart should one cherish all living beings, suffusing the whole world with unobstructed loving kindness. Standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all of one's waking hours, one should sustain this heart and this way of living.
- Karaniya Metta Sutta
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Polar Bear
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by Polar Bear »

Zom wrote:
Sometimes consciousness element is listed in one row with space element, which is also intriguing. It may be the case that, universally, there is such thing as a impersonal field of mentality which itself does not cognize anything, but some part of it, being dragged into particular place in space-time, conjoined with other mental components (known as "nama") becomes something which is known as "[individual] consciousness" and this mental construction has a function to cognize. When a meditator enters jhana, he can expand his "individual consciousness" (see MN 127), pervading all other individual consciousnesses of this global mentality field (like Brahma in MN 120), up to the level of cognizing this field alone, thus knowing "consciousness is infinite". And when he reaches nibbana, his individual consciousness ceases, "returning" to the global mentality field, just like a wave fades out in the ocean.
Wouldn't that then imply that the experience of the sphere of infinite consciousness is an experience of nibbana? Also, this notion strikes me as rather vedantin in nature. I'm actually surprised as I have never heard (read I suppose) you saying anything like this before. I'd be interested to hear out an explication of this notion of yours though.

As to the OP, whether the suttas support a notion of collective consciousness or not depends on your notion of collective consciousness. If collective consciousness is merely a label signifying a number of minds acting in agreement with each other then sure, groups can be collectively greedy or non-greedy etc. But from my reading of the texts I see no support for the notion that consciousnesses are literally/metaphysically merging with one another, or that some higher order mind is formed via the interaction of individual minds, or that individual minds are formed via some single higher order mind being siphoned off into a plurality of particular minds. When one is in agreement with another and says, "we are of one mind," I think the obvious understanding of that phrase is the metaphorical one rather than the metaphysical, and the same interpretation I think should apply to any appropriate use of the notion of collective consciousness.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by Zom »

Wouldn't that then imply that the experience of the sphere of infinite consciousness is an experience of nibbana?
No, because "infinite consciousness" is the experience of a particular individual consciousness which cognizes. But in this state it is very large, unlike ordinary restricted and constricted mind. So, this is still mundane state, no sign of nibbana here, which means total cessation of cognizing.
Also, this notion strikes me as rather vedantin in nature.
Yes, this passage from the Ocean Sutta does look like vedantic -) But - this is a buddhist text.
The difference lies in the cognition ability and the ability to create beings. As far as I know, Vedanta idea is this: global consciousness acts just like an individual one and it can create sub-consciousnesses (create living beings). But in the model I mentioned global mentality is, actually, not a consciousness and does not have any consciousness abilities like thinking, decision, will, remembering, perception, etc. It is just a mass of primitive building blocks for living being's consciousness and all other mental abilities. Just like with matter - chaotic mass of protons and electrons, etc, is not yet a body and can't function as a body. It has to be very well structured before it can become a body.
If collective consciousness is merely a label signifying a number of minds acting in agreement with each other then sure, groups can be collectively greedy or non-greedy etc.
But we do see groups of people acting in the same way - greedy way, angry way, delusional way -)
And, as suttas say:

"At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, it is by way of elements that beings come
together and unite. Those who destroy life come together and
unite with those who destroy life; those who take what is not
given … who engage in sexual misconduct … who speak falsehood
… who speak divisively … who speak harshly … who
indulge in idle chatter come together and unite with those who
so indulge" 8-)
But from my reading of the texts I see no support for the notion that consciousnesses are literally/metaphysically merging with one another, or that some higher order mind is formed via the interaction of individual minds, or that individual minds are formed via some single higher order mind being siphoned off into a plurality of particular minds
Yes, texts generally do not speak this way, so this is a presumption. But this presumption is not groundless, as I've shown already. Again, another parallel is space. There is "individual space" in the living being (space between bodily organs and the space the body occupies), and there is "non-individual space", that is, outer "global" one. I don't see the argument why the same can't be with "mentality". If one is to say this model is wrong, then there must be another one, but which one? In this another model personal consciousness is completely separated from another one - and this looks more like materialism, where the consciousness is just a product of the physical brain (which is wrong). If not, how will you answer Pondera question: "how is that possible for one consciousness to know another?"
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by Pondera »

Polarbear101:

What I mean by collective consciousness is that consciousness is "out there" and that our consciousnesses aren't barred from interacting with one or the other on account of being sourced to a brain inside a skull. I think consciousness is a non-temporal carrier for perception to occur. And beings are sending consciousness "out" amongst each other - getting feedback and interference all of the while.
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by davidbrainerd »

The fact that Buddha teaches the realm of infinite consciousness can be transcended demonstrates that Buddha did not believe in collective or corporate self like the Vedantist Brahman.
Last edited by davidbrainerd on Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by Polar Bear »

Pondera wrote:Polarbear101:

What I mean by collective consciousness is that consciousness is "out there" and that our consciousnesses aren't barred from interacting with one or the other on account of being sourced to a brain inside a skull. I think consciousness is a non-temporal carrier for perception to occur. And beings are sending consciousness "out" amongst each other - getting feedback and interference all of the while.
It seems to me logically impossible for consciousness to be non-temporal, for cognition requires change which requires time. And consciousness is merely the process of cognition continually occurring. As to whether consciousnesses interact with each other or not, obviously they do via speech and body language. Whether or not consciousness is some sort of field of energy extending out past our bodies or not I suppose I can't say I know. But from my understanding, in early buddhism, minds are not privy to one another except in the case where a highly skilled meditator has developed telepathic abilities after reaching the fourth jhana.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by Monkey Gift of Honey »

Pondera,

You wrote:
What I mean by collective consciousness is that consciousness is "out there" and that our consciousnesses aren't barred from interacting with one or the other on account of being sourced to a brain inside a skull. I think consciousness is a non-temporal carrier for perception to occur.
That is not Buddha Dhamma. That is not what the Buddha taught. Perhaps a Hindu site is more of what you are looking for.
As a mother watches over her child, willing to risk her own life to protect her only child, so with a boundless heart should one cherish all living beings, suffusing the whole world with unobstructed loving kindness. Standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all of one's waking hours, one should sustain this heart and this way of living.
- Karaniya Metta Sutta
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Pondera
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by Pondera »

Monkey Gift of Honey wrote:Pondera,

You wrote:
What I mean by collective consciousness is that consciousness is "out there" and that our consciousnesses aren't barred from interacting with one or the other on account of being sourced to a brain inside a skull. I think consciousness is a non-temporal carrier for perception to occur.
That is not Buddha Dhamma. That is not what the Buddha taught. Perhaps a Hindu site is more of what you are looking for.
It was a personal opinion.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Monkey Gift of Honey
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Re: Collective Consciousness

Post by Monkey Gift of Honey »

Pondera,

I see. I think your opinion would be more inline with Hindu ideas.
As a mother watches over her child, willing to risk her own life to protect her only child, so with a boundless heart should one cherish all living beings, suffusing the whole world with unobstructed loving kindness. Standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all of one's waking hours, one should sustain this heart and this way of living.
- Karaniya Metta Sutta
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