Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

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justindesilva
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by justindesilva » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:37 pm

Maiev wrote:Killing is part of nature. All animals kill, including humans. Greed is part of nature, hatred is part of nature etc. Rather than following this "way of nature", buddhism advises us to go against this way of nature, to go against the flow. And it's not just buddhism, all religions pretty much agree on this. Arguments like "that is against nature" have no place in any religion.
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by DNS » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:27 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Maiev wrote:Killing is part of nature. All animals kill, including humans. Greed is part of nature, hatred is part of nature etc. Rather than following this "way of nature", buddhism advises us to go against this way of nature, to go against the flow. And it's not just buddhism, all religions pretty much agree on this. Arguments like "that is against nature" have no place in any religion.
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Can you elaborate further your opposition to Maiev's post beyond OMG? :tongue:

There actually is a logical fallacy known as Naturalistic fallacy where it is considered inappropriate to assume something is good or correct simply due to being natural, so there could be a good point in Maiev's post.

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by justindesilva » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:40 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
justindesilva wrote:
Maiev wrote:Killing is part of nature. All animals kill, including humans. Greed is part of nature, hatred is part of nature etc. Rather than following this "way of nature", buddhism advises us to go against this way of nature, to go against the flow. And it's not just buddhism, all religions pretty much agree on this. Arguments like "that is against nature" have no place in any religion.
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Can you elaborate further your opposition to Maiev's post beyond OMG? :tongue:

There actually is a logical fallacy known as Naturalistic fallacy where it is considered inappropriate to assume something is good or correct simply due to being natural, so there could be a good point in Maiev's post.
Yes but this question needs an elaborate answer consuming time.
Yet please read Rohitassa sutra (access to insight )
AN 9.38
Also let us consider that we are amidst all obstacles in a prestigious situation of Buddothpada
kala which allows us to embrace the Dharma in this samsara.
Consider the term in Pali
Kammana vattathi loko, Kammanavattathi paja which means exactly that the worlds and beings are processed by karma (the exact point addressed by good Maiev)
I am in no way angered here. But I feel that we should not be guided otherwise in to unwholesome situations directing us away from the correct budda dharma.
Also let us ponder in to the situation of " kshana sampatti"
addressed in Darma to follow the noble eight fold path in this wild society which tries to drag us in to lobha dosa moha with our mighty will to be developed with meditation available to us.
I remember that there is kshana sampatti sutta in the pitska.
With love and maitri .

davidbrainerd
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by davidbrainerd » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:15 pm

cjmacie wrote: "Suicide" is Latin for self-killing. What's the "self" here that gets terminated? Five piles of phenomena: material, feeling-tone, percepts, fabrications and consciousness? What's to blame dropping that?
...
It clearly carries Western religious and modernist cultural baggage, as amply evidence in this discussion.
I predicted this on page 1. Just another reason (as if I needed any more) to reject the no-self misinterpretation of anatta.

Quoting myself from page 1:
davidbrainerd wrote:
justindesilva wrote:It is time not to be interested in slogans or sermons arising from one's thoughts and look in to our own inner selves and go iñ the noble eight fold path thus saving our previous time.
Agreed. But as far as public facing Buddhism goes you can get yourself onto great trouble with that one. The same type of guys wanting to teach euthanasia (but controlling thmselves and waiting until the groundwork has been prepared) have been laying the groundwork of "no self, no inner core" so that you will not be able to look to your own inner self because they will have already convinced you it doesn't exist. And then when they finally come out in favor of euthanasia, you'll agree with them. That is their obvious hope.
"You don't exist anyway so kill yourself" right? There are two types of no-selfers (1) depressed people who are suicidal, (2) people seeking to take advantage of depressed people who are suicidal. There is nothing logical about the position whatsoever.

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:29 pm

depressed people who are suicidal
This is called Vibhava Tanha.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Maiev
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Maiev » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:48 am

davidbrainerd wrote: There are two types of no-selfers (1) depressed people who are suicidal, (2) people seeking to take advantage of depressed people who are suicidal.
And most of animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test - But yet they do not commit suicide

Suicide approved by the suttas happens in particular circumstances such as old age and painful incurable illness. It does not happen because someone loses his money at the casino and realizes that there is no self, especially if that person is a buddhist and believes in rebirth. (so suicide would not help him escape his problems) Only kind of suicides mentioned in the suttas are when a person has escaped rebirth and suffers from terrible illness making him unable to be productive anymore.

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by binocular » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:56 pm

Maiev wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote: There are two types of no-selfers (1) depressed people who are suicidal, (2) people seeking to take advantage of depressed people who are suicidal.
And most of animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
From the Wiki link:
The mirror test, sometimes called the mark test or the mirror self-recognition test (MSR), is a behavioural technique developed in 1970 by psychologist Gordon Gallup Jr. as an attempt to determine whether a non-human animal possesses the ability of self-recognition.[1] The MSR test is the traditional method for attempting to measure self-awareness, however there has been controversy whether the test is a true indicator.
/.../
The MSR test has been criticized for several reasons, in particular, because it may result in findings that are false negatives.[24]
The MSR test may be of limited value when applied to species that primarily use senses other than vision.
For example: None of our cats recognizes me merely by seeing me. Outside of the house, if I am quiet, the cats distance themselves, as if I were a stranger. When I call them, they come and behave naturally like old friends. In comparison to human standards, cats seem to have relatively poor vision as far as colors and shapes go, but they can see movement very well and they have good vision when there is relatively little light. It's inadequate to impose standards adequate for one species onto another species.

If anything, the mirror test tests only some kinds of visual self-recognition, but certainly not all self-recognition. According to the mirror test, people who are blind have no self-recognition ...

Referring to the mirror test as some kind of evidence that animals are no-selfers is misleading.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by davidbrainerd » Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:21 pm

binocular wrote:
Maiev wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote: There are two types of no-selfers (1) depressed people who are suicidal, (2) people seeking to take advantage of depressed people who are suicidal.
And most of animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
From the Wiki link:
The mirror test, sometimes called the mark test or the mirror self-recognition test (MSR), is a behavioural technique developed in 1970 by psychologist Gordon Gallup Jr. as an attempt to determine whether a non-human animal possesses the ability of self-recognition.[1] The MSR test is the traditional method for attempting to measure self-awareness, however there has been controversy whether the test is a true indicator.
/.../
The MSR test has been criticized for several reasons, in particular, because it may result in findings that are false negatives.[24]
The MSR test may be of limited value when applied to species that primarily use senses other than vision.
For example: None of our cats recognizes me merely by seeing me. Outside of the house, if I am quiet, the cats distance themselves, as if I were a stranger. When I call them, they come and behave naturally like old friends. In comparison to human standards, cats seem to have relatively poor vision as far as colors and shapes go, but they can see movement very well and they have good vision when there is relatively little light. It's inadequate to impose standards adequate for one species onto another species.

If anything, the mirror test tests only some kinds of visual self-recognition, but certainly not all self-recognition. According to the mirror test, people who are blind have no self-recognition ...

Referring to the mirror test as some kind of evidence that animals are no-selfers is misleading.
I thought the mention of the mirror test was because I said "there are 2..." so I took it some kind of retort that when an animal sees itself in the mirror there are 2 of them.... Probably I misunderstood though.

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Monk Jag » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:40 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I attach a PDF of Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes on this sutta.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:It should be noted that this commentarial interpretation is imposed on the text from the outside, as it were. If one sticks to the actual wording of the text it seems that Channa was already an arahant when he made his declaration, the dramatic punch being delivered by the failure of his two brother-monks to recognise this. The implication, of course, is that excruciating pain might motivate even an arahant to take his own life—not from aversion but simply from a wish to be free from unbearable pain.
So, if an Arahant is unable to bear severe pain, how can he be free from aversion? I see no way that this interpretation is possible.
Dear Ven. Pesala, An arahant is not free from pain, but only free from emotional/psychological pain. There is no grasping or aversion to pain, but that does not negate the painful feeling experienced (even the Buddha had pains towards his death after eating his final meal). It's interesting to note how the Buddha declared that there would be no other monk who could handle the pain of eating that last meal apart from the Tathagata (Mahaparinibbana Sutta).

It would be good to consider that an Arahant's only purpose to continue living, is either the dissemination , or practice of Dhamma. If an Arahant cannot practice "Temporary Liberation of mind" (Jhana), then there would not be any "Peaceful abiding here and now" (a phrase used by the Buddha explaining the benefits of Jhana). So this would leave an Arahant with bodily pains that may indeed impede any teaching (imagine just having bowel cramps and trying to teach). What is then left for the Arahant? Eating, sleeping and breathing...to what end? The Arahants have "no further work to do", and therefore how they end the physical life is of little importance as it's just rupa left behind with no Nama to contend with after parrinibbana.

Even the anagami has finished with dosa and lobha, so much less does an Arahant have to look forward to (including maintenance of a body just for the sake of maintaining a body). They have reached the goal, nothing more to do but await death (by whatever means it arrives). It's also important to note any talks of monks rising in the air and setting themselves on fire (Ananda), or dying at the hands of bandits (Mahamoggalana) is based on commentaries :cry:

Ven Sariputta states that he was awaiting death "Just like a Government official awaiting his paycheck". The difference here is there is no evidence of Sariputta experiencing painful and racking feelings of the body, hence no reason to bring on a quick end to samsara.

As for the unenlightened, the Buddha cleary says that even the Stream enterer has "More work to do" and that one who lays down this body to pick up another one is "Not blameless". Thos who die as an Arahant are not blameless, and therefore there is no stigma attached. A body is just a body (to an Arahant). For all others, it can be identified with and clung-to. This is the danger zone.

Am I advocating suicide, NO. Am I stating that the text indicates Arahants bringing about the death of the body, YES. The rest is clearly written in the source texts (suttas) and is up to each individual to investigate for themselves. A commentary after all is only as good as the commentator's wisdom will allow, and I cannot personally assume an Arahant writes commentaries...in fact, I personally doubt an Arahant could be bothered with writing books which would bring more attention to themselves (inadvertently).

Thanks for welcoming me to the forum as well. Great to see people discussing Dhamma even if there are differences in view/opinion!!! :anjali:

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:37 am

Monk Jag wrote:Dear Ven. Pesala, An arahant is not free from pain, but only free from emotional/psychological pain. There is no grasping or aversion to pain, but that does not negate the painful feeling experienced (even the Buddha had pains towards his death after eating his final meal).
Well, that's what I said.
Monk Jag wrote:It's interesting to note how the Buddha declared that there would be no other monk who could handle the pain of eating that last meal apart from the Tathagata (Mahaparinibbana Sutta).
That's not what it says. It says that no other monk would be able to digest it. An Arahant can bear any amount of pain, even that which causes his death.
Monk Jag wrote:A commentary after all is only as good as the commentator's wisdom will allow.
I don't see any great wisdom in your comments. You make up your own interpretations in a very free-wheeling manner. Even your name is made up. Why not use Bhikkhu Jaganātha? The comments of Buddhaghosa are much closer to the original texts, and therefore more reliable, although it is not clear whether or not he is an Arahant if the colophon in the Visuddhimagga is taken at face-value.

Edited in the light of Robert's comments below:
Buddhaghosa wrote:What store of merit has been gained by me
Desiring establishment in this Good Dhamma
In doing this, accepting the suggestion
Of the venerable Saòghapála,
One born into the line of famous elders
Dwelling within the Great Monastery,
A true Vibhajjavádin, who is wise,
And lives in pure simplicity, devoted
To discipline’s observance, and to practice,
Whose mind the virtuous qualities of patience,
Mildness, loving kindness, and so on, grace—
By the power of that store of merit
May every being prosper happily.
And now just as the Path of Purification,
With eight and fifty recitation sections
In the text, has herewith been completed
Without impediment, so may all those
Who in the world depend on what is good
Glad-hearted soon succeed without delay.
Regarding Ānanda's death, I quoted FaHsein, not the Pāḷi Commentaries. The account of Dabba's demise is told in the Udāna Pāḷi Text (not the Commentary)

“Parinibbānakālo me dāni Sugatā” ti.
“Now is the time for my Complete Emancipation, Fortunate One.”

“Yassa dāni tvaṁ Dabba kālaṁ maññasī” ti.
“Now is the time for whatever you are thinking, Dabba.”

Atha kho āyasmā Dabbo Mallaputto uṭṭhāyāsanā,
Then venerable Dabba Mallaputta, after rising from his seat,

Bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā padakkhiṇaṁ katvā,
worshipping and circumambulating the Gracious One,

vehāsaṁ abbhuggantvā, ākāse antaḷikkhe pallaṅkena nisīditvā,
after going up into the sky, and sitting in cross-legged posture in the air, in the firmament,

tejodhātuṁ samāpajjitvā, vuṭṭhahitvā, Parinibbāyi.
entering the fire-element, and emerging, attained Complete Emancipation.

This is not suicide. Dabba sees the impending termination of his natural life-span, and makes a determination regarding what happens at that moment.

If you wish to ignore the Commentaries and Abhidhamma, that's your prerogative, but it would be hard to understand some texts without them.

“Having slain mother and father and two warrior kings,
and having destroyed a country together with its chancellor,
a Saint goes ungrieving .”Dhp.v.294

“Having slain mother and father and two brahmin kings,
and having destroyed the perilous path,
a Saint goes ungrieving.” Dhp.v.295
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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binocular
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by binocular » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:00 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I attach a PDF of Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes on this sutta.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:It should be noted that this commentarial interpretation is imposed on the text from the outside, as it were. If one sticks to the actual wording of the text it seems that Channa was already an arahant when he made his declaration, the dramatic punch being delivered by the failure of his two brother-monks to recognise this. The implication, of course, is that excruciating pain might motivate even an arahant to take his own life—not from aversion but simply from a wish to be free from unbearable pain.
So, if an Arahant is unable to bear severe pain, how can he be free from aversion? I see no way that this interpretation is possible.
Especially given that the suttas offer plenty of graphic images, such as flayed cows, the prospect of being thrown into a pit of embers, being stabbed with 300 spears a day for a hundred years, shedding more tears and blood than there is water in the oceans, mountains crushing everything in sight, and being cut up by bandits with a saw, and that there seems to be an expectation to be at peace with such things happening, it just doesn't seem convincing that an arahant would have difficulty with such things.

If we look at a sutta like the one about the 300 spears daily for a hundred years, with a promise to gain awakening after that:
"Monks, suppose there was a man whose life span was 100 years, who would live to 100. Someone would say to him, 'Look here, fellow. They will stab you at dawn with 100 spears, at noon with 100 spears, & again at evening with 100 spears. You, thus stabbed day after day with 300 spears, will have a lifespan of 100 years, will live to be 100, and at the end of 100 years you will realize the four noble truths that you have never realized before.'

"Monks, a person who desired his own true benefit would do well to take up (the offer). Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident for the (pain of) blows from spears, swords, & axes. Even if this (offer) were to occur, I tell you that the realization of the four noble truths would not be accompanied by pain & distress. Instead, I tell you, the realization of the four noble truths would be accompanied by pleasure & happiness.

"Which four? The noble truth of stress, the noble truth of the origination of stress, the noble truth of the cessation of stress, and the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
What could be worse than 300 spears daily for a hundred years? And if we take these 300 spears daily for a hundred years as the baseline, then the pains of cancers and other diseases cannot compare.

- - -
Maiev wrote:We must keep in mind that an arahant is free of idealism. An arahant might find himself if the situation of suffering from terrible incurable illness and lacking the possibility of teaching the dhamma due to his old age and illness. Knowing there is no more rebirth, nothing more to do in this world, the only rational solution is suicide. Been free from idealism and superstitious beliefs, why would he hesitate in doing the rational choice ?
It seems that when things get that far (when a disease or injury has worsened so badly), there remain only a few days of life anyway at most, so there is no need for an actual act that would end the life of the body.

The course of a disease is not an objective given that would be independent from the individual and the same for all people. We can speculate that one of the reasons why some people struggle with a crippling disease for so long is precisely because they are still attached to worldly things and still want to pursue them.
We can observe, for example, that some people with a certain kind of cancer pass away relatively quickly, while some others with the same kind of cancer struggle on for a much longer time. Whence the difference? It seems the difference is (at least) in their attachment to worldly things.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

SarathW
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:15 am

Then it occurred to the Venerable Godhika: “Six times already I have fallen away from temporary liberation of mind. Let me use the knife.”


Can you explain how you understand the above statement.
- I understood that as he was unable to touch the deathless (Nibbana) six times.
- It appears Bhante Pesala also has the same understanding as mine.
- Bhante Jag appears to see this as a fallen six times from the meditative attainment.

Can you clarify this for me please.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by SarathW » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:23 am

Even your name is made up. Why not use Bhikkhu Jaganātha?
This sounds very Australian to me.
Isn't this the same as we use Bhante G for Bhante Gunaratna?

:focus:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Maiev
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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by Maiev » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:45 am

We can speculate that one of the reasons why some people struggle with a crippling disease for so long is precisely because they are still attached to worldly things and still want to pursue them.
We can observe, for example, that some people with a certain kind of cancer pass away relatively quickly, while some others with the same kind of cancer struggle on for a much longer time. Whence the difference? It seems the difference is (at least) in their attachment to worldly things.
Yes and in the case of non-arahant people they still have things to do in terms of personal development. But an arahant is one with nothing more to do, all that was needed to be done was done and as you said, neither does an arahant have any more attachment to things in this world.

I don't think there is much left to interpretation here. There is not just one random case of arahant committing suicide in the pali canon but many.
Last edited by Maiev on Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Bhante Jag - Euthanasia

Post by robertk » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:45 am

SarathW wrote:
Then it occurred to the Venerable Godhika: “Six times already I have fallen away from temporary liberation of mind. Let me use the knife.”


Can you explain how you understand the above statement.
- I understood that as he was unable to touch the deathless (Nibbana) six times.
- It appears Bhante Pesala also has the same understanding as mine.
- Bhante Jag appears to see this as a fallen six times from the meditative attainment.

Can you clarify this for me please.
not nibbana, jhana.


bodhi: "(V 320,24-25). Spk: He reflected thus: "Since the destination
after death of one who has fallen away from jhana is
uncertain, while one who has not fallen away is certain of
rebirth in the brahma world, let me use the knife"

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